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Champagne Breakfast
Also bear in mind some of the greatest and most interesting intellectuals around today are American, brought up in the broader liberal arts education system and yet still at the top of their fields. I think more breadth not only makes you a better-functioning citizen in today's society, but also allows you to approach your chosen field of specialization from a variety of different perspectives and hence to bring deeper insights to it. All disciplines have subtly different approaches to knowledge, and restricting yourself to one essentially restricts yourself to viewing the world through one lens only.

Yes we have had many years of general education, culminating in the GCSEs, but I believe the level of that education is far lower than it should be. Because of the British education system, I was able to give up all forms of science by the time I was 15, meaning I was essentially handicapped for about 3 years. The little science I did know was a) probably incorrect and b) far from adequate. How can I claim to understand the modern world without a decent knowledge and understanding of science?

Specialization is a good thing, but the British system has too much too early. The American system, even the Scottish system, would be an improvement.


Here here.
Reply 21
They're not that restrictive. The thing about British higher education is that people really should have an idea of what 'area' of study they'd prefer to enter (i.e. science, arts, all that jazz); once you enter a degree course like Chemistry who says it's impossible to change to another science or mathematics?

The only advantage of a relatively broad degree is that it may have some merits in the workplace; businesses, banking, consultancy, etc. If you're going to enter a job related to your degree then specialising seems far more useful.
Reply 22
I think they are quite research led (as in modules will be studied related to the lecturer's field), especially in years 2 and 3.
Reply 23
timeceremony
Just to clarify, no ones opinion is the universal golden standard. I could likewise list countless great polymaths who did excel in numerous fields. As a scientist I am a great supporter of scientists excelling in the arts as well, since these complement each other.
Also, if you do a little reading into the theory of creativity you will notice that one general conclusion is the importance of the use of both the left and right side of the brain, this being achieved by both doing mathematico-physical activities as well as arts-related things.


Still though, combined honours courses, and elective modules bring in this aspect of an arts/science mix; and I'm sure to some extent, almost all courses have a mix within them.

My course, for example, though a single, specialist one (TV Production), is a Science; however, this doesn't stop me taking an elective module in a more artistic area - and of course even the Science of my course requires me to use creativity too (i.e. in coming up with ideas for films etc.)

I'm sure the same applies to many others.
Do a joint honours degree, if it bothers you that much? It's simple - if you want a broad education, you go to America. If you want a slightly narrower but still fairly broad one, you go to Scotland or (some parts of) Wales. If you want to focus solely on one subject, you go to England.

The English system is the way it is because clearly the majority of people are happy with it. If everyone thought that English universities were too restrictive, they would change. As it stands, most people seem to be happy with it. I know I'd despise having to study subjects that don't interest me (although as a languages student, I could fill up my table with various languages, so it wouldn't affect me too much). I hate maths, and I'm bad at it. Hence, I would not appreciate being made to study it in the name of a broad education that I don't feel I need.
Reply 25
Joanna May
It's simple - if you want a broad education, you go to America. If you want a slightly narrower but still fairly broad one, you go to Scotland or (some parts of) Wales. If you want to focus solely on one subject, you go to England.

It's really not that simple.
Jelkin
It's really not that simple.

Well, it is, because you have no choice, really. Either you do what you want to do, regardless of other complications, or you put up with what you're offered because you literally don't have a choice. It's not nice, but it's definitely fairly simple.
Reply 27
Yes, but that's not what you said in your previous post.
Here in Scotland Im studying the MPharm (masters of pharmacy) degree, and in our first year we're being given a general but thorough introduction to physical pharmacy, chemistry and biology, as well as an introduction to other aspects of being a pharmacist, such as patient care etc. Since the aim of the degree is to get a qualification as a pharmacist in either community, hospital or industry, I think so far the course has been suitably specialised to get participants to the level they need. Any extra modules and we would be studying extra bumf that had nothing to do with our profession, any less and we'd miss out on skills we need to do the job.
If you want to do more than one subject, do a joint or major/minor route

I've found my course fantastic but like people have said before, once you get to university level, I'd much prefer to do one subject in depth than many and skim them.

I'm doing History and my first year modules were overviews, say Europe in the 20th century; now I'm in my third year, they're more specific. Saying that I did have specific ones in every year
Reply 30
Personally I think a lot of peoples degree choices these days leave them with little of no advantage when they graduate. Unless you want to go into politics for example, what does that actually give you in terms of skills to sell to an employer? Perhaps you can write in a concise way and aren't totally daft.

The idea of using a postgrad to then make what your doing vocational was fine in years gone by when the funding was there but these days its crazy money and seems a silly way to go about things.

I think you really need to look at something which gives a proper defined career path otherwise you risk losing 3 years wages and 20k of debt for next to nothing.
Reply 31
playford
Personally I think a lot of peoples degree choices these days leave them with little of no advantage when they graduate. Unless you want to go into politics for example, what does that actually give you in terms of skills to sell to an employer? Perhaps you can write in a concise way and aren't totally daft.


Expertise in political systems? Research, presentation, and time management skills? Proof that you can work in a group from time to time? Evidence of the capacity for original thinking?

playford
I think you really need to look at something which gives a proper defined career path otherwise you risk losing 3 years wages and 20k of debt for next to nothing.


But not everybody wants to be a doctor, lawyer, or stockbroker. Those jobs might be secure and lucrative, but they're not exactly interesting or good for your personal happiness / fulfilment. Take those out of the equation, and we're looking at a world where today's students will, on average, have eight jobs before the age of thirty. The rest of us need transferable skills, and - for that - actual degree content is, most of the time, going to be irrelevant. And, if that's the case, you might as well do something that you're going to enjoy, regardless of whether that's going to fit into the 'shallow but wide' model, or the narrower focus of the British system.
I think you really need to look at something which gives a proper defined career path otherwise you risk losing 3 years wages and 20k of debt for next to nothing.


So everyone should study medicine, dentistry, vet. med, nursing, law, or engineering (you get the idea)?

Who, then, is going to do all the jobs that don't have degrees named after them?
Jelkin
Yes, but that's not what you said in your previous post.

Yes it is. I said "it's simple" and I repeated that in the second post I made.

If you want a broader spectrum of ideas, you have to attend a university that offers this. Anyone in the UK who wants a broader education can go and study in Scotland with next to no problems at all. It costs exactly the same, and it will make you happier. English universities offer the courses they offer because they are in high demand. Therefore, if you require something different to the norm, you have to look further afield to find it.
I agree with the OP that British degrees are too restrictive. For this reason, I am contemplating applying to the US as well as to the 5 UK universities through UCAS. There are courses available in the US that I have had no exposure to during A levels (like certain modern languages) and who knows whether I am good at them or whether I'd enjoy them or not, seeing as the British system has given me no opportunity to try them? I love the sound of the liberal arts system.
Reply 35
peanutbutternjelly
I agree with the OP that British degrees are too restrictive. For this reason, I am contemplating applying to the US as well as to the 5 UK universities through UCAS. There are courses available in the US that I have had no exposure to during A levels (like certain modern languages) and who knows whether I am good at them or whether I'd enjoy them or not, seeing as the British system has given me no opportunity to try them? I love the sound of the liberal arts system.


Which is one of the right reasons to apply abroad. And, from the sound of it, you're not alone.
peanutbutternjelly
I agree with the OP that British degrees are too restrictive. For this reason, I am contemplating applying to the US as well as to the 5 UK universities through UCAS. There are courses available in the US that I have had no exposure to during A levels (like certain modern languages) and who knows whether I am good at them or whether I'd enjoy them or not, seeing as the British system has given me no opportunity to try them? I love the sound of the liberal arts system.

Definitely go for it. I started at an Ivy this year for similar reasons and it has been an amazing experience. Zero regrets.
Joanna May
Well, it is, because you have no choice, really. Either you do what you want to do, regardless of other complications, or you put up with what you're offered because you literally don't have a choice. It's not nice, but it's definitely fairly simple.

That doesn't mean people shouldn't try and change the current system.
I have a love/hate relationship with American general education. I have at times said I hated it, but in reality, I do like being able to take what I want. Yes, I do feel my GPA has taken a blow, and this has caused me to cluster my classes back where I'm genuinely interested, but it does work well. But I love being able to just take random language classes, politics, or even sciences if I want to. And I'm encouraged to do so by my advisors and professors.

But, I did apply to universities in the UK and considered/visited universities in Canada as well. I think I still would have liked the other systems, but my favorite thing about Berkeley is the amount & range of classes offered. And that I could hypothetically take any of them! But I don't have to, and even courses in Maths & sciences aren't necessarily hardcore, but catered towards non-sciency people.
At Oxford we get a really solid grounding in our subject of choice, but I agree that beyond that you learn pretty much nothing.
Though through the university societies you can learn lots of things without ever having to go through stupid examinations; you do it simply out of joy. Now isn't that just as good if not better than being offered the course but having to regurgitate all the facts out in a midterm. I think so.

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