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Debate: Should schools have gender-neutral bathrooms for transgender students? Watch

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    (Original post by VirgoStrain)
    If trans kids weren’t complaining about bullying, this wouldn’t be an issue. Not too hard to work out. On the other hand, you could continue to pelt out big words pretending to be an intellectual.
    I doubt many would argue that bullying goers on, but you are still missing the bit where you provide evidence that the response to complaints of bullying (the provision of gender neutral toilets) has resulted in a reduction in bullying. I'd have thought that such a facility would act as a magnet for the bullies, who might lie in wait and scrag the user (undisturbed, because only one child in a school uses it).
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    (Original post by TheMathsTeacher)
    How would the addition of a separate bathroom be an inconvenience to anyone?
    Perhaps through the money for books or a new science lab having been used to provide a gender-neutral toilet for one child?
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    (Original post by VirgoStrain)
    lol.

    Trans bathrooms reduce bullying because the bullying that does occur in gender specific bathrooms is partly to do with the fact a trans person is in it, and may not fit in, or may look out of place.
    Or perhaps bullying occurs regardless of where the trans person is at? And perhaps lots of the bullying occurs in a toilet because the kids can "safely" do it away from the eyes of the teachers.

    If you have gender neutral toilets then the trans kids will definitey not look out of place, but if you're trying to reduce trans bullying as a whole, then focusing on the bathrooms is a weak course of action.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Perhaps through the money for books or a new science lab having been used to provide a gender-neutral toilet for one child?
    If the school doesn’t need a new science lab or books then it can use the money for a gender neutral bathroom. It’s far cheaper anyway.
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    (Original post by VirgoStrain)
    If the school doesn’t need a new science lab or books then it can use the money for a gender neutral bathroom. It’s far cheaper anyway.
    If a school is so well funded that it doesn't need a new science lab, doesn't need to improve the wages of their staff or perhaps doesn't even need to expand their campus, then sure. As for it being cheaper, how?
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    (Original post by VirgoStrain)
    If the school doesn’t need a new science lab or books then it can use the money for a gender neutral bathroom. It’s far cheaper anyway.
    There are many things that should have a higher priority than gender-neutral toilets. I suspect no school in the world would claim it had no need to spend money on books, repairs, improvements, salaries, which would be clear examples that should take priority.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    There are many things that should have a higher priority than gender-neutral toilets. I suspect no school in the world would claim it had no need to spend money on books, repairs, improvements, salaries, which would be clear examples that should take priority.
    No. No. No.

    The schools first priority is to ensure all students are in a comfortable and non-toxic learning environment. You can have the best labs and teachers and library in the world. But if you’ve got a rubbish school culture in which you’re constantly bullied, then you will perform badly. It’s sad you think that a school should prioritise material objects over the wellbeing of their students.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    I doubt many would argue that bullying goers on, but you are still missing the bit where you provide evidence that the response to complaints of bullying (the provision of gender neutral toilets) has resulted in a reduction in bullying. I'd have thought that such a facility would act as a magnet for the bullies, who might lie in wait and scrag the user (undisturbed, because only one child in a school uses it).
    AFAIK when gender neutral toilets are introduced, they're for everyone... not specially reserved for trangender only.

    They're also reported to reduce bullying - not just of the transgendered kids, of everyone who uses them...
    and also reduce vandalism of the toilets and associated fixtures and fittings

    Also worth noting that you can get by with using less space for gender neutral toilets which saves money on new build and potentially frees up some space in existing school buildings.
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    (Original post by VirgoStrain)
    if you’ve got a rubbish school culture in which you’re constantly bullied
    Many schools demonstrate that bullying can be tackled, essentially for free, without segregating the victims.
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    (Original post by Joinedup)
    Also worth noting that you can get by with using less space for gender neutral toilets which saves money on new build and potentially frees up some space in existing school buildings.
    It is also worth pointing out that toilets with urinals are much quicker to use and allow large numbers of people to use them quickly, which is one reason why male toilets almost never have queues while female ones very often have long queues.
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    (Original post by VirgoStrain)
    No. No. No.

    The schools first priority is to ensure all students are in a comfortable and non-toxic learning environment. You can have the best labs and teachers and library in the world. But if you’ve got a rubbish school culture in which you’re constantly bullied, then you will perform badly. It’s sad you think that a school should prioritise material objects over the wellbeing of their students.
    I agree that kids need to know they are in a safe environment if they are to effectly learn what they are being taught, but that environment should not take precedence over the resources needed to provide the learning.

    You can have the best school culture and an amazingly safe place, but if your textbooks are from the 70s and your teachers printed off their diploma, then the kids will perform badly. It's a balancing act, but with preference for the learning resources. Besides, better teachers can help teach their pupils that trans people are no different from everyone else. A *****y teacher might not give a flying duck.

    Edit: It's sad to think you think schools should prioritise wrapping all kids in bubble-wrap over teaching them, which y'know, is the ENTIRE POINT of a school.
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    (Original post by VinnicombeDmv)
    I agree that kids need to know they are in a safe environment if they are to effectly learn what they are being taught, but that environment should not take precedence over the resources needed to provide the learning.

    You can have the best school culture and an amazingly safe place, but if your textbooks are from the 70s and your teachers printed off their diploma, then the kids will perform badly. It's a balancing act, but with preference for the learning resources. Besides, better teachers can help teach their pupils that trans people are no different from everyone else. A *****y teacher might not give a flying duck
    Building a few gender neutral toilets is hardly going to bankrupt a school and set it back 100 years. Besides, with a good teacher, textbook and lab quality don’t matter. Good teachers can work with anything.
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    (Original post by VirgoStrain)
    Building a few gender neutral toilets is hardly going to bankrupt a school and set it back 100 years. Besides, with a good teacher, textbook and lab quality don’t matter. Good teachers can work with anything.
    Schools are already underfunded as it is, so every penny counts. As such, they prioritise. Yes, and the good teachers are going to be able to choose where to work. Choose somewhere that puts "safe space" over learning, or instead go somewhere that actually understands the value of resources in learning.
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    (Original post by VinnicombeDmv)
    Schools are already underfunded as it is, so every penny counts. As such, they prioritise. Yes, and the good teachers are going to be able to choose where to work. Choose somewhere that puts "safe space" over learning, or instead go somewhere that actually understands the value of resources in learning.
    My school is a Grammar school, which is somewhat underfunded and has to manage its costs carefully. We have a new sixth form block and sports hall, but the main block has hardly changed and many desks and chairs are poor quality. Our school consistently gets some of the best results in the country. Contrast this with some public or independent schools which are very well funded, and have excellent equipment, but which perform very poorly.
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    (Original post by VirgoStrain)
    No. No. No.

    The schools first priority is to ensure all students are in a comfortable and non-toxic learning environment. You can have the best labs and teachers and library in the world. But if you’ve got a rubbish school culture in which you’re constantly bullied, then you will perform badly. It’s sad you think that a school should prioritise material objects over the wellbeing of their students.
    The comfort of a minority - possibly none - over a benefit to all.

    I am personally to be convinced that the provision of facilities for trans young people doesn't simply encourage some to declare it as a fad; distorting the true picture and numbers.

    I'm personally not in favour of the promotion of non-binary gender issues. In terms of school toilets, I think there should be gender-neutral toilets purely for the convenience of everyone - if it can be done cost-effectively (i.e. not converting an old school building). But the sudden acceptance (or rather rush to blindly embrace) non-binary issues as a trend just seems foolish to me. It's barely understood what they actually mean, and I would hazard that most of the people claiming such status barely understand them. As such, how do you make provision for such nebulous statuses?
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    (Original post by VirgoStrain)
    My school is a Grammar school, which is somewhat underfunded and has to manage its costs carefully. We have a new sixth form block and sports hall, but the main block has hardly changed and many desks and chairs are poor quality. Our school consistently gets some of the best results in the country. Contrast this with some public or independent schools which are very well funded, and have excellent equipment, but which perform very poorly.
    What about your learning resources? The textbooks, lab equipment, teacher, etc? Are those up to date and of a good quality? My secondary school had desks and chairs from decades ago, but some of my teachers were enthusiastic and smart, so I enjoyed (and thus learned more) their classes.

    Also, aren't grammar schools a bit exclusionary from the get-go? I mean, if you can pick who gets to attend, then naturally your scores are going to be high.
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    (Original post by VirgoStrain)
    Building a few gender neutral toilets is hardly going to bankrupt a school and set it back 100 years. Besides, with a good teacher, textbook and lab quality don’t matter. Good teachers can work with anything.
    The whole point is that the school with a bullying problem does not have good teachers (or it would not have the problem). Good teachers would not let the problem arise, or would deal with it far more cost-effectively.

    Hence, these toilets cannot fix a bullying problem and waste money that could be better spent elsewhere.
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    (Original post by VirgoStrain)
    Contrast this with some public or independent schools which are very well funded, and have excellent equipment, but which perform very poorly.
    Name one.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    It is also worth pointing out that toilets with urinals are much quicker to use and allow large numbers of people to use them quickly, which is one reason why male toilets almost never have queues while female ones very often have long queues.
    Well I think that's usually architects giving equal floorspace to male and female toilets when they should really be giving more space to female toilets... if you're going with separate m/f facilities.

    School toilets need to be oversized anyway cos they get hammered for 10 minutes out of the hour and stand empty for the other 50 but it's reported that you get more bang for your floorspace buck with gender neutral.
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    (Original post by euphonious)
    Tell me what you think.
    Schools should have gender-neutral loos only, not male, female and transexual.
 
 
 
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