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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    The primary challenge is to get more BMEs to apply in the first place.

    Cambridge's latest OFFA statement:
    https://www.offa.org.uk/agreements/U...dge%201718.pdf
    According to official stats around 30% of applicants in 2016 were from a BME background which is way in excess in of their representation in the general UK population. I therefore think it is unfair to suggest that BME applicants are slow in coming forward.

    I also think is is unhelpful to foster the impression that Cambridge is somehow discriminating against BME students in their admissions process, when in fact the reverse would seem to be the case.
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    According to official stats around 30% of applicants in 2016 were from a BME background which is way in excess in of their representation in the general UK population. I therefore think it is unfair to suggest that BME applicants are slow in coming forward.

    I also think is is unhelpful to foster the impression that Cambridge is somehow discriminating against BME students in their admissions process, when in fact the reverse would seem to be the case.
    I think you'll find that 30% includes Internationals. And if it doesn't it's the black community that is definitely underapplying. And if they do apply they tend to be less successful at getting offers than the university average because many are applying for the most competitive courses.

    But yes agreed. They definitely don't discriminate against.

    Edit: here's the data...
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    One small victory... more black students admitted than Etonians...

    https://www.varsity.co.uk/news/13366
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    I think you'll find that 30% includes Internationals. And if it doesn't it's the black community that is definitely underapplying. And unfortunately if they do apply they tend to be less successful at getting offers than average.

    But yes agreed. They definitely don't discriminate against.

    Edit: here's the data...
    Name:  Screenshot_20171019-103902.png
Views: 48
Size:  319.8 KB

    One small victory... more black students admitted than Etonians...

    https://www.varsity.co.uk/news/13366
    One also has to think about the courses people choose to apply to. Students from under-represented backgrounds disproportionately apply to come of the most competitive courses.
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    (Original post by Peterhouse Admissions)
    One also has to think about the courses people choose to apply to. Students from under-represented backgrounds disproportionately apply to come of the most competitive courses.
    Indeed yes (I'll amend my post to save confusion).

    Also to OP: Why 14 black male Cambridge students posed for this photo
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    I think you'll find that 30% includes Internationals. And if it doesn't it's the black community that is definitely underapplying. And unfortunately if they do apply they tend to be less successful at getting offers than average.

    https://www.varsity.co.uk/news/13366

    But yes agreed. They definitely don't discriminate against.
    "I think you'll find that 30% includes Internationals."

    That's a revealing, albeit understandable, comment.

    Actually, I was quoting from: Table 8.1 Home applicants, offers and acceptances to Cambridge by ethnic origin and gender 2016.

    And it's interesting to compare this table with the ethnicity data produced from the 2011 Census:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...land-and-wales

    In 2016, the categories labelled: Black African/Black Caribbean/Black Other equated to 3% of all Cambridge applications (exactly equating to their percentage of the UK population in the 2011 Census).

    The applications from Chinese students equated to 2.8% of all applications which was significantly higher than their representation of 0.7% in the general population in the 2011 Census.

    The applications from Asian students (ex Chinese) equated to 9.5% of all Cambridge applications significantly higher than their representation in the UK Census of 6.7% of the population.

    So I really don't understand the government's position with regard to BME targets.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)

    But yes agreed. They definitely don't discriminate against...

    One small victory... more black students admitted than Etonians...
    "They definitely don't discriminate against...one small victory...more black students admitted than Etonians"

    Why is it okay then to discriminate against the minority group of Etonians? Doesn't that break house-rules? Or are Etonians not protected by them?

    It sort of demonstrates the points raised in this Spectator article:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/03/...-go-to-durham/

    Extract shown below:

    "These days, I fear, in order to recreate that echt Oxbridge experience, you need to apply, not to Oxford or Cambridge, but to one of those establishments such as Durham which we used to scoff at for being filled with Oxbridge rejects.
    They still are filled with Oxbridge rejects, of course, but of such a high calibre that they would once have been a shoo-in. Quite a hefty portion come from the private schools against which, anecdotal evidence suggests, Oxbridge admissions tutors are becoming increasingly prejudiced."
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    "They definitely don't discriminate against...one small victory...more black students admitted than Etonians"

    Why is it okay then to discriminate against the minority group of Etonians? Doesn't that break house-rules? Or are Etonians not protected by them?

    It sort of demonstrates the points raised in this Spectator article:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/03/...-go-to-durham/

    Extract shown below:

    "These days, I fear, in order to recreate that echt Oxbridge experience, you need to apply, not to Oxford or Cambridge, but to one of those establishments such as Durham which we used to scoff at for being filled with Oxbridge rejects.
    They still are filled with Oxbridge rejects, of course, but of such a high calibre that they would once have been a shoo-in. Quite a hefty portion come from the private schools against which, anecdotal evidence suggests, Oxbridge admissions tutors are becoming increasingly prejudiced."
    "Anecdotal evidence suggests" - so, no evidence. Anecdotal evidence can suggest ghosts exist, too.

    Also, please don't try to compare discrimination against BME and students who attend one of the most prestigious and expensive secondary schools in England (if not the world). 45% of Oxford students are from private schools, so I really doubt they're becoming prejudiced against them (especially considering how many students actually attend private schools). Comparing racial discrimination, which is present in so many societal aspects, and supposed discrimination in admissions is ridiculous.
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    "I think you'll find that 30% includes Internationals."

    That's a revealing, albeit understandable, comment.

    Actually, I was quoting from: Table 8.1 Home applicants, offers and acceptances to Cambridge by ethnic origin and gender 2016.
    Table 8.1 (I earlier edited the table into my reply) doesn't have 30% BME, it's 22%.
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    (Original post by Mac117)

    Also, please don't try to compare discrimination against BME and students who attend one of the most prestigious and expensive secondary schools in England (if not the world). 45% of Oxford students are from private schools, so I really doubt they're becoming prejudiced against them (especially considering how many students actually attend private schools). Comparing racial discrimination, which is present in so many societal aspects, and supposed discrimination in admissions is ridiculous.
    "Also, please don't try to compare discrimination against BME and students who attend one of the most prestigious and expensive secondary schools in England (if not the world)."

    Discrimination is discrimination. You either think it is right or you think it is wrong. It would be illogical to condemn discrimination against one group (e.g. BME) whilst promoting it against another (e.g. Etonians).

    "45% of Oxford students are from private schools, so I really doubt they're becoming prejudiced against them "

    We were discussing Cambridge. See admission statistics on website.

    Table 1.1 Applications, offers and acceptances to Cambridge by type of school/college and gender 2016

    1. 59.5 % of all applicants were home applicants (rather than overseas)
    2. 27.89 % of home applicants were from the private sector.
    3. 65.88 % of home applicants were from the state sector

    These applications resulted in the following students attending in 2016:

    1. 75.8% of Cambridge students admitted were home applicants.
    2. 36.54 % of home applicants admitted were from the private sector.
    3. 60.82% of home applicants admitted were from the state sector.

    N.B. I have adjusted the figures to show the data for home applicants only rather than all applicants,

    The number of privately educated students at Cambridge has dropped significantly in the last ten years as Cambridge has tried its utmost to increase the number of state-educated students and especially, state-educated BME students.

    "Supposed discrimination in admissions is ridiculous"

    It is not 'supposed': it is published policy by way of the treaty Cambridge has signed with the government. If Cambridge does not meet its targets then the Government will penalise them financially.

    Cambridge is a privilege which should be earned through talent and hard-work and I don't personally therefore agree with the Government setting targets on the basis of race, gender or educational background. It's social engineering, no more and no less.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Table 8.1 (I earlier edited the table into my reply) doesn't have 30% BME, it's 22%.
    Yes. You are correct since around 5% have not stated their ethnicity.

    Okay of those who stated their ethnicity (95%):

    76.52% were White
    23.47% were BME

    That still represents an over-representation when compared with their 14% of the population according to the 2011 Census.
    3.Ethnicity in England and Wales

    Figure 1: Ethnic groups, England and Wales, 2011




    Source: Census - Office for National Statistics
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    Yes. You are correct since around 5% have not stated their ethnicity.

    Okay of those who stated their ethnicity (95%):

    76.52% were White
    23.47% were BME

    That still represents an over-representation when compared with their 14% of the population according to the 2011 Census.
    3.Ethnicity in England and Wales

    Figure 1: Ethnic groups, England and Wales, 2011




    Source: Census - Office for National Statistics
    There is an over-representation of some groups, not all. (Your image isn't visible)
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    There is an over-representation of some groups, not all. (Your image isn't visible)
    Sorry about the image not being visible; it was a chart showing ethnic composition by the ONS:
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...2012-12-11#toc

    Which BME groups are under-represented at Cambridge according to their representation in the 2011 Census population statistics? (Other than the White ethnic group which is significantly under-represented compared with their 86% representation in the UK population in the 2011 Census data? )

    This discussion all began when I dared to counter the argument that BME students 'under-apply' to Cambridge and that it is full of white, middle-class posh kids from private school as expressed on this thread.

    The statistics show that applications from BME students are significantly greater than might be expected given their representation in the UK population as a whole; secondly, that the vast majority of Cambridge students are not middle-class posh kids from private school: they might be middle-class, they might be posh but they are overwhelmingly state-educated (or at least come from state sixth forms)
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    secondly, that the vast majority of Cambridge students are not middle-class posh kids from private school: they might be middle-class, they might be posh but they are overwhelmingly state-educated (or at least come from state sixth forms)
    That I agree with. I said that at the outset.
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    Just on the black British cohort, there *is* still more work to be done.

    Oxford accused of 'social apartheid' as colleges admit no black students

    https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...y_to_clipboard

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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Just on the black British cohort, there *is* still more work to be done.

    Oxford accused of 'social apartheid' as colleges admit no black students

    https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...y_to_clipboard
    Whilst I share your sentiments, David Lammy is a notorious twister of statistics and is frankly dishonest on this topic all the time.

    For example, that article makes a big deal out of Oxford not releasing these stats until late as if they are trying to hide something. Oxford has released extensive data on ethnicity and nationality every year for decades - the thing they are making a big deal about is specifically ethnicity by college, which are sample sizes so low they are of no statistical value and indeed risky in terms of personal identifiable data.

    Its also of note that in that article states than Merton admitted no black students for a 5 year period. Aside from the obvious cherry picking of data there, its not true at all - there were at least two admitted in that time. They just (presumably) chose to not disclose their ethnicity to whatever survey collects this data.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    Whilst I share your sentiments, David Lammy is a notorious twister of statistics and is frankly dishonest on this topic all the time.

    For example, that article makes a big deal out of Oxford not releasing these stats until late as if they are trying to hide something. Oxford has released extensive data on ethnicity and nationality every year for decades - the thing they are making a big deal about is specifically ethnicity by college, which are sample sizes so low they are of no statistical value and indeed risky in terms of personal identifiable data.

    Its also of note that in that article states than Merton admitted no black students for a 5 year period. Aside from the obvious cherry picking of data there, its not true at all - there were at least two admitted in that time. They just (presumably) chose to not disclose their ethnicity to whatever survey collects this data.
    Good point, I just skimmed it and didn't pickup on Lammy.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Just on the black British cohort, there *is* still more work to be done.

    Oxford accused of 'social apartheid' as colleges admit no black students

    https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...y_to_clipboard

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Had to do a double-take there: why is Lammy banging on about 2015 stats in October 2017? Did he just wake up?

    The fact is that in 2016 at Cambridge, 3% of total applications were from Black students which equates to the percentage of Black people in the general population according to the 2011 Census.

    Cambridge made offers to 1.7% and 1.5% met their offers.

    The only question we have to answer is: did the 1.3% who failed to get an offer do so because the Admission Tutors/Colleges were racist or did they fail to get an offer because they failed to make the grade in the assessment process? Lammy seems to think there is inherent racism; I don't agree - my money is with the students not making the grade. The percentage of places offered to other BME groups exceeds both their representation in the general population and their representation of total applications; so why should Cambridge be racist against one particular BME group only?

    My fear, however, is that Oxbridge will cave in to this intense pressure and start awarding places to underperforming candidates to satisfy the likes of Lammy. This would be detrimental to those Black students who earned their place through merit and would also be unfair to the better students who were deprived the privilege.
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    Nice thread hijack 🙃
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Still wrong. Cambridge is very used to assessing applicants without UMS. There was no UMS at all a few years ago, and when UMS was in place approx 40% of applicants didn't have it (IB, Highers, etc, etc).

    They have, though, introduced Admissions Assessments either pre- or at-interview for a large number of courses to add further information to applications, and partly to make up for the loss of UMS information.

    GCSEs are taken into account, but primarily only within the context of your school's overall performance. And even then are by no means the most important part of an application.
    So if I have 9.0, 9.0, 9.0 and 90% on the NSAA, 10, 10 and 10 in the interviews, and high raw marks in AS, but 0 A*s at GCSE, I'm "extremely likely" to get an offer am I?

    But does the AT really see from this that I am a competitive candidate in the cohort?
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    (Original post by Kenneye_j)
    So if I have 9.0, 9.0, 9.0 and 90% on the NSAA, 10, 10 and 10 in the interviews, and high raw marks in AS, but 0 A*s at GCSE, I'm "extremely likely" to get an offer am I?

    But does the AT really see from this that I am a competitive candidate in the cohort?
    Yes
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