Will being homosexual send me to hell after death? Will my family hate me?

Original post by _Fergo

No. All choices were predicted and in the content of a creator this is not free choice.

It's like creating a robot knowing full well its behaviour and saying it has free choice. And this is not even about god who is omnipotent.

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No, it's like creating an AI capable of thinking and making its own choices.

Reply 64

Original post by Student-95

No, it's like creating an AI capable of thinking and making its own choices.

Once again you confuse us with god. We can't know what the Al will do, but god does.

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Reply 65

Original post by Notorious_B.I.G.

That just means you haven't done your research.

You make a claim with no backing and then criticise me for not doing my research. Very poor practice.

In Psalm 139:1-4 David wrote, “You have searched me, LORD, and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you, LORD, know it completely.”

147:5 - "Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; his understanding is infinite".

1 John 3.20: "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things".

There are literally dozens of such quotes in the Bible. Same in Islam.

On this basis, I'd urge you to follow up on your own point.

(edited 6 years ago)

Reply 66

Dysf(x)al

Original post by FredJhon

Hello everyone. I am a Christian however I am also a homosexual. I am afraid that my dad (who is extremely Catholic) would disown me if I came out to my family. I have tried on multiple occasions to cure myself but I cannot suppress my feelings for the male gender. Is this a trial from God? Or will I be sent to hell?

Depends if you believe in hell. I pesonally don't (since I'm an atheist), but you might.

There is no "cure" for homosexuality. It's how you are, and as far as we know there's no way to change it. So if God created you gay, why would he send you to hell just for being gay and liking the same gender? Note that there is a difference between liking the same gender (which you can't help) and having sex with the same gender (which you can help, but in my opinion there's nothing wrong with it).

In my opinion, your biggest problem is your dad. If you can, talk to someone you trust who isn't too close to your dad (such as a counsellor at school since they have to keep what you say confidential). It's a difficult situation and I have no idea what I'd do if it was me. Just remember that none of it is your fault.

Hell is waiting

Original post by _Fergo

Once again you confuse us with god. We can't know what the Al will do, but god does.

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He knows what we choose to do. Knowing something is going to happen doesn't mean it's not free will.

Reply 69

Original post by Student-95

He knows what we choose to do. Knowing something is going to happen doesn't mean it's not free will.

So, if I build an AI knowing it'll massacre millions (let's assume), I can absolve myself of any responsibility because... knowing does not mean direction.

This is a very juvenile point. And once again (!), he CREATES us and KNOWS exactly what we will do. Free will cannot exist in this scenario.

Reply 70

Leeram

1

Original post by FredJhon

Hello everyone. I am a Christian however I am also a homosexual. I am afraid that my dad (who is extremely Catholic) would disown me if I came out to my family. I have tried on multiple occasions to cure myself but I cannot suppress my feelings for the male gender. Is this a trial from God? Or will I be sent to hell?

I am an atheist.

As a christian you follow the words of Jesus Christ. Not the words of your family, not the words of priests and not the words of anyone else. The following passage is from 'wouldjesusdiscriminate'.org. it contains everything I was going to say so I have just copied and pasted it.

Unfortunately your family may hate you, but there again they may not, it just depends on your family and there's not much you can do about that.

As for going to hell, Jesus usually spoke in terms of following God or following Jesus. Those that followed either do not go to hell. He said some who sinned would go to hell but also preached forgiveness if you turn to God. I wouldn't presume to be able to decipher all the bible has to offer, but I would say that being as you are a follower there is no chance of you going to hell. Gay or not.

Cheers
Lee

"As the dialogue continues, Jesus’ disciples are disturbed by his strict teaching on divorce. The disciples say that if divorce is not a ready option, perhaps it would be best for a man not to marry a woman. Jesus responds:
“Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.” (Matthew 19:11-12)
Here Jesus identifies three classes of men who should not marry women. Taking his categories in reverse order, first, there are those who have made themselves “eunuchs” for the kingdom of heaven, i.e., those who foreswear marriage to better serve God. Second, he mentions those who have been “made eunuchs by others,” an apparent reference to castrated males. But Jesus mentions a third category — eunuchs who were born that way. Some might argue that Jesus was referring to males born without testicles, but this would be extremely rare. Moreover, this interpretation ignores how the term “born eunuchs” was used in other literature of the time.
In the ancient world, including ancient Jewish culture (as reflected in the Talmud), “natural” or “born” eunuchs were not associated with missing testicles. Rather, they were associated with stereotypically effeminate characteristics and behavior (just like modern gay men), and were thought by Rabbi Eliezer to be subject to “cure” (just like modern gays). Moreover, as we have also seen, eunuchs were commonly associated with homosexual desire. (For a complete discussion of the term "born eunuch" and the connection with homosexuality, see

As a reasonably informed person of his time, Jesus would have been aware of this common view of eunuchs. Yet he very matter-of-factly asserts that some people are simply born that way. The implication of his statement is profound — God created gay people the way they are! Jesus says so.
Unlike Rabbi Eliezer, Jesus feels no need to “cure” these born eunuchs. He speaks no words of condemnation. Rather he lists people born gay alongside another honored class (eunuchs for the kingdom), and accepts them as a natural part of God’s creation order.
Thus, when Matthew 19 is read as a whole, we see Jesus teaches that most people are created for heterosexual marriage. (We too accept this as God’s predominant creation paradigm.) But, unlike some modern Christians, Jesus does not see this as the only honorable way to live. He acknowledges that some human beings have been created by God to follow a less common, but equally legitimate path. There are some who have been eunuchs from birth — made that way by God."

Reply 71

Plantagenet Crown

Original post by Student-95

He knows what we choose to do. Knowing something is going to happen doesn't mean it's not free will.

How is it not? If God knows in advance what you are going to do then you have no choice but to do what he has foreseen and so it is impossible for you to take any alternative course of action. Therefore, while it may seem like you have free will, if God knows the specific course of your life before it happens, free will is undeniably nullified.

The only explanation I've seen some New Agers say to get round this is that we, as humans, are making an infinite number of choices simultaneously and that for every scenario where we could pick A or B, we are in fact picking both, but our mind is only conscious of one. In this way, there is no predetermined course of your life as you are in effect living in an infinite number of parallel universes/realities making every possible decision.

Reply 72

Original post by Plantagenet Crown

How is it not? If God knows in advance what you are going to do then you have no choice but to do what he has foreseen and so it is impossible for you to take any alternative course of action. Therefore, while it may seem like you have free will, if God knows the specific course of your life before it happens, free will is undeniably nullified.

The only explanation I've seen some New Agers say to get round this is that we, as humans, are making an infinite number of choices simultaneously and that for every scenario where we could pick A or B, we are in fact picking both, but our mind is only conscious of one. In this way, there is no predetermined course of your life as you are in effect living in an infinite number of parallel universes/realities making every possible decision.

He knows what you will choose because he is all knowing. He's not making the choice for you

Reply 73

Plantagenet Crown

Original post by Student-95

He knows what you will choose because he is all knowing. He's not making the choice for you

The act of him knowing an action in advance is identical to fixing/predetermining that action because it is impossible for you to make a decision contrary to his thoughts.

(edited 6 years ago)

Reply 74

Original post by _Fergo

So, if I build an AI knowing it'll massacre millions (let's assume), I can absolve myself of any responsibility because... knowing does not mean direction.

This is a very juvenile point. And once again (!), he CREATES us and KNOWS exactly what we will do. Free will cannot exist in this scenario.

Of course it can. Knowing is not the same as controlling/forcing. If we didn't have free will then why did God bother with the 10 commandments? Why did Jesus guide people to behave in a certain way? It would all be pointless by your logic.

Reply 75

Original post by Student-95

Of course it can. Knowing is not the same as controlling/forcing. If we didn't have free will then why did God bother with the 10 commandments? Why did Jesus guide people to behave in a certain way? It would all be pointless by your logic.

This is a massive contradiction of logic.

If I create something knowing it'll have a specific effect, it's as if I caused that effect myself. It's a very simple point.

Whether that is divine is questionable, hence cannot be used as proof. I can write that I saw a dragon, doesn't make it true.

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Reply 76

Notoriety

22

Original post by _Fergo

You make a claim with no backing and then criticise me for not doing my research. Very poor practice.

In Psalm 139:1-4 David wrote, “You have searched me, LORD, and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you, LORD, know it completely.”

147:5 - "Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; his understanding is infinite".

1 John 3.20: "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things".

There are literally dozens of such quotes in the Bible. Same in Islam.

On this basis, I'd urge you to follow up on your own point.

No, I criticised you for apparently dismissing my point through your personal ignorance. Implying that it is important that you have not heard of such an argument, as if you are some expert on the subject.

At times like these, I like to refer to my trusty Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy 2nd ed, p 240.

"But there may be reasons for recognizing a limitation on the class of true propositions that a being must know in order to be omniscient. For example, if there are true propositions about the future, omniscience would then include foreknowledge. But some philosophers have thought that foreknowledge of human actions is incompatible with those actions being free. This has led some to deny that there are truths about the future and others to deny that such truths are knowable. In the latter case, omniscience might be taken to be knowledge of all knowable truths. Or if God is eternal and if there are certain tensed or temporally indexical propositions that can be known only by someone who is in time, then omniscience presumably does not extend to such propositions."

I am not religious. I am just telling you this to explain the futility of thinking you have concrete proofs against the existence of God. Thousands of committed people have already "rebutted" your rebuttal, a millennium before you ever thought to make it. Why waste your time.

Reply 77

username2763536

15

Original post by Student-95

Free. Will.
Giving people the liberty to make their own choices isn't cruel at all. If we were all controlled then we wouldn't really be humans at all.

Instead of a child would you rather have a robot that only did exactly as it was commanded and was incapable of free thought or action?

If we have free will then can a human make a choice that goes against gods will? Can a human do anything that god does not desire? If we can't go against gods will then how do we have free will? Our will is identical to gods will and is not independent at all.Ergo humans do not have free will in christian mythology.

Reply 78