Spain moves to suspend Catalonia's autonomy

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Poll: Should Spain allow Catalonia to declare independence?
Yes, it's only fair after the referendum. (570)
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Elizabeth II
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#1
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#1
Spain is to start suspending Catalonian autonomy on Saturday, as its leader threatened to declare independence.
The government said ministers would meet to activate Article 155 of the constitution, allowing it to take over running of the region.

Catalonia's leader said earlier the region's parliament would vote on independence, backed in a disputed referendum on 1 October, if Spain "continues repression".
Read more here: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41678086

What are your thoughts on the currently developing situation in Catalonia? Should they have the freedom to declare independence based on the referendum or not? Why? Really interested to hear what you think!

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Daniel100499
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(Original post by Paracosm)
Read more here: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41678086

What are your thoughts on the currently developing situation in Catalonia? Should they have the freedom to declare independence based on the referendum or not? Why? Really interested to hear what you think!

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She-Ra - you may be interested in this
I think it’s wrong for Spain to suspend their autonomy, if Catalonia wants to be independent, and they can support themselves with minimal help from Spain, then there’s no reason why they should not be allowed to become independent
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Daniel100499
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It’s similar to Scottish independence in the uk, I’m not Scottish but I believe if they really want it then there should t be anything stopping them from having it
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#4
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(Original post by Daniel100499)
I think it’s wrong for Spain to suspend their autonomy, if Catalonia wants to be independent, and they can support themselves with minimal help from Spain, then there’s no reason why they should not be allowed to become independent
See, I agree with you. I think that Spain is only delaying the inevitable considering the lengths Catalonians have gone to already to protect their sovereignty. I don't claim to understand the whole situation though, so I'm really interested in people's thoughts to better form my own opinion.
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Daniel100499
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(Original post by Paracosm)
See, I agree with you. I think that Spain is only delaying the inevitable considering the lengths Catalonians have gone to already to protect their sovereignty. I don't claim to understand the whole situation though, so I'm really interested in people's thoughts to better form my own opinion.
(Original post by Paracosm)
See, I agree with you. I think that Spain is only delaying the inevitable considering the lengths Catalonians have gone to already to protect their sovereignty. I don't claim to understand the whole situation though, so I'm really interested in people's thoughts to better form my own opinion.
While I do understand that a country wants to be independent so that it can rule its own way, without interference from another country, I don’t understand why Spain wants to keep Catalonia, is it for power? Money? Land?
But yes, I also don’t understand the whole situation and I too am just interested in other people’s opinions
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steve550
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woo
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999tigger
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#7
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(Original post by Daniel100499)
It’s similar to Scottish independence in the uk, I’m not Scottish but I believe if they really want it then there should t be anything stopping them from having it
Similar in objective, but different in reality. Had Scotland voted for independence, then they would have seceded. It was a legal referendum.

The Catalonian one was not. Only a fraction of people voted. If the public will is there, then I expect they will get one eventually, If they proceed as they are then there will be a lot of trouble and nobody will recognise them, which will be very bad for their economy.
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(Original post by 999tigger)
Similar in objective, but different in reality. Had Scotland voted for independence, then they would have seceded. It was a legal referendum.

The Catalonian one was not. Only a fraction of people voted. If the public will is there, then I expect they will get one eventually, If they proceed as they are then there will be a lot of trouble and nobody will recognise them, which will be very bad for their economy.
Oh so is it the Catalonian government that wants independence and not the people? Or did only a few vote because others were unaware, or not bothered or something like that?
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Maker
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The referendum was illegal therefore void. Some people seem to think if enough people in a location voted for independence, they should get it which is nonsense.

What would happen if the city they were living in did that and the rest if the county decided to make it illegal to travel outside their "country"? A bit awkward.

If Catalonia did get independence, very few countries would recognise it since they don't want their own citizens to do the same. I doubt if any country in Europe would recognise it as an independent country, not even Scotland.
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999tigger
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(Original post by Daniel100499)
Oh so is it the Catalonian government that wants independence and not the people? Or did only a few vote because others were unaware, or not bothered or something like that?
The referendum was declared illegal beforehand , but the regional government went ahead with it. Only 41% of people voted and the credibility of things like vote counting have been questioned. the result was supposedly 90% in favour, but we know from previous opinion polls its much closer than that along the 50/50 line.

So what happened to the 59% who stayed away? Much more likely they didnt vote because they werent in favour and also they recognised the vote was illegal.

If they do secede, then they need a legal vote and a larger portion of the population need to take part. Normally for big changes, then its at least 2/3. If they want to, then I hope they get to vote. If it happens, then it will happen in a lot of other countries with regions wanting to break free.
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(Original post by 999tigger)
The referendum was declared illegal beforehand , but the regional government went ahead with it. Only 41% of people voted and the credibility of things like vote counting have been questioned. the result was supposedly 90% in favour, but we know from previous opinion polls its much closer than that along the 50/50 line.

So what happened to the 59% who stayed away? Much more likely they didnt vote because they werent in favour and also they recognised the vote was illegal.

If they do secede, then they need a legal vote and a larger portion of the population need to take part. Normally for big changes, then its at least 2/3. If they want to, then I hope they get to vote. If it happens, then it will happen in a lot of other countries with regions wanting to break free.
Thanks for clarifying
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seaholme
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The referendum was illegal and lots of people who wanted to remain a part of Spain did not participate as they thought it counted for nothing. Overall participation was poor - even the blighted Brexit referendum had higher turnout. The results of it are null and void, therefore. It's like doing a poll with your mates and then enforcing it on everyone.
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Calders37
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#13
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A legal referendum needs to be held before any action is taken. The referendum that (sort of) took place was in no way representative of the people and so cannot be used as the catalyst for this change, it would be just as undemocratic as the Spanish Government trying to stop the referendum in the first place.
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mojojojo101
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(Original post by Daniel100499)
Oh so is it the Catalonian government that wants independence and not the people? Or did only a few vote because others were unaware, or not bothered or something like that?
Catalan independance has been a thing since the Civil War, you could argue that its roots lie even longer ago, with the unification of the Iberian penninsula in the mid 15th century ish (i forget the dates)

(Original post by seaholme)
The referendum was illegal and lots of people who wanted to remain a part of Spain did not participate as they thought it counted for nothing. Overall participation was poor - even the blighted Brexit referendum had higher turnout. The results of it are null and void, therefore. It's like doing a poll with your mates and then enforcing it on everyone.
Similaorly many people who would haave voted for independance would have turbed up either because their polling station was shut down or because they were afraid of the very real threat of police violence, arrest and the ongoing consequences of that.


The Spanish government seem to be doing absolutely everything they can to drive Catalonia away. There is no way direct rule is going to remedy this situation and is almost definitely going to make it significantly worse.
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username1221160
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#15
The heavy handed approach the Spanish government has adopted over the last few months is only going to add to the calls for independence.
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username1207499
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#16
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#16
People should have the right to self determination. Making it illegal for people to vote isn't the sign of a government that's on the right side of history
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edd522
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If Madrid had organised a referendum they would have won it. Now they have upset many undecided people and will ultimately lose. Rajoy is an idiot.
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#18
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#18
People are more obsessed with the technicalities and following bureaucratic rule of law than ACTUAL democracy.

Sorry, but if the Catalonia and its people want independence then someone who wants to uphold democracy must allow for their independence.
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Madrid is just going to make the issue worse
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I am slightly torn; I understand Catalonia's right to self-determination, and acknowledge the inherent processes of democracy - however, Spain in interfering with the referendum, essentially declared it null - by preventing people from voting, seizing ballot boxes et cetera.

Hence, if possible, the referendum should be run again - with no interference from Spain; in the best case scenario, the administration of the vote should be delegated to an impartial organisation - e.g. the UN, or the EU (though some may state that they are not impartial in their methods). In my eyes, the referendum was just a watered down version of the Venezuela Constitutional Assembly vote which was truly a shambles.

Regardless, it is evident that Catalonia wishes to be independent, so eventually Spain must accept this. Nonetheless, the independence of Catalonia will not work without detailed discussions with Spain on a transitional agreement, and the migration of taxation systems et cetera; it would be a bureaucratic nightmare - i.e. a mini-Brexit; but if Catalonia truly votes to become independent, they should be able to do so.
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