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Spain moves to suspend Catalonia's autonomy Watch

  • View Poll Results: Should Spain allow Catalonia to declare independence?
    Yes, it's only fair after the referendum.
    49.83%
    No, the referendum was illegal.
    24.30%
    Unsure.
    25.87%

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    I am slightly torn; I understand Catalonia's right to self-determination, and acknowledge the inherent processes of democracy - however, Spain in interfering with the referendum, essentially declared it null - by preventing people from voting, seizing ballot boxes et cetera.

    Hence, if possible, the referendum should be run again - with no interference from Spain; in the best case scenario, the administration of the vote should be delegated to an impartial organisation - e.g. the UN, or the EU (though some may state that they are not impartial in their methods). In my eyes, the referendum was just a watered down version of the Venezuela Constitutional Assembly vote which was truly a shambles.

    Regardless, it is evident that Catalonia wishes to be independent, so eventually Spain must accept this. Nonetheless, the independence of Catalonia will not work without detailed discussions with Spain on a transitional agreement, and the migration of taxation systems et cetera; it would be a bureaucratic nightmare - i.e. a mini-Brexit; but if Catalonia truly votes to become independent, they should be able to do so.
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    Rajoy and Co. have completely refused to engage, that's the problem.

    They've been both unwilling to even discuss the possibility Catalan independence regardless of conditions, and have presented no real arguments against it in principle other than a dogmatic normative commitment to Spanish unionism. Puigdemont has been put in an impossible position.
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    It says a lot about the state of Europe when Iraq can hold a referendum on Kurdish sovereignty with less violence and brutality than Spain can on the Catalans.

    They knew Catalonia would vote to leave so they sent in what can only described as a bunch of fascist thugs to beat, brutalise and torture the voters since undermining the integrity of the vote is the only defense they could ever possibly muster for keeping together what has become their shambolic nation.
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    (Original post by FriendlyPenguin)
    Nothing should be done on the basis of the referendum, which was badly managed. It was badly managed *because* the Spanish government did everything they could to obstruct it, including intimidating voters, and stealing ballot boxes.

    The Spanish are right to prevent independence, but what they should be doing is allowing the Catalonians to hold a legal referendum, or at least hold some negotiations with the separatists, rather than turning into an occupying power...
    This is what puts me so staunchly behind the Catalans.

    The only argument the Spanish can come up with aside from their transparent cries of ''muh constitution'' is to point at the imperfect manner with which the referendum was carried out, except is was only carried out that way, because the Spanish government undermined the process from the beginning.
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    The muh constitution cry is utterly stupendous, they want independence and don't believe in your constitution.
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    Similar in objective, but different in reality. Had Scotland voted for independence, then they would have seceded. It was a legal referendum.

    The Catalonian one was not. Only a fraction of people voted. If the public will is there, then I expect they will get one eventually, If they proceed as they are then there will be a lot of trouble and nobody will recognise them, which will be very bad for their economy.
    A higher proportion of the Catalonian population voted for independence than British did for Brexit.

    What turnout would be acceptable to you?
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    A higher proportion of the Catalonian population voted for independence than British did for Brexit.

    What turnout would be acceptable to you?
    The turnout for the illegal Catalonian referendum was 43%.
    The turnout for Brexit was 64%.

    Just because a high % allegedly voted leave doesnt make it any more legitimate as 59% didnt vote, theres no verification of the figures and the no voters will have stayed away. It might be they would still have won, but that vote hasnt taken place yet.

    Bexit was legal and the Catalonian one was not .

    For changes to happen on this level they tend to have to be legal, which would be according to the rule of law. the UK referendum was debated and sanctioned by the UK government.. Constitutional changes tend to require a 2/3 majority in parliamentary vote. All depends what the Spanish constitution says.

    If they want to go ahead an secede, then other countries will not recognise them. That means no EU and no UN. It also means many banks and financial institutions wont have anything to do with them either.
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    I believe before independence is declared, Catalonia should hold a proper referendum like Scotland had in 2014, with both sides having a campaign. With turnout below 50% (most people didn't turnout because they didn't recognise it as legitimate) and they weren't informed with what independence would actually mean. In other words it was a referendum held illegally with only one side being promoted and it had poor results anyway.
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    So Catalonia really wants to go independent and does an illegal referendum. So in effect they're Spain's most rebellious region. And Spain responds by.... taking more direct control of the most rebellious region.

    See now on the face of it that does not seem like a smart idea.
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    Absolutely vile.
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    (Original post by Ganjaweed Rebel)
    It says a lot about the state of Europe when Iraq can hold a referendum on Kurdish sovereignty with less violence and brutality than Spain can on the Catalans.
    Give it time :erm:


    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Rajoy and Co. have completely refused to engage, that's the problem.

    They've been both unwilling to even discuss the possibility Catalan independence regardless of conditions, and have presented no real arguments against it in principle other than a dogmatic normative commitment to Spanish unionism. Puigdemont has been put in an impossible position.
    But unless Catalonians are prepared to engage in some serious warfare what can they do about it? They have no big armed force that can compete with the spannish state. There would have to be a flip in allegiance of the forces of the Spannish state. That or Catalanians engage in some serious militant general strike stuff.
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    (Original post by Retired_Messiah)
    So Catalonia really wants to go independent and does an illegal referendum. So in effect they're Spain's most rebellious region. And Spain responds by.... taking more direct control of the most rebellious region.

    See now on the face of it that does not seem like a smart idea.
    It's more like the Catalans attempted to hold a free and fair referendum and the Spanish police started physically abusing them, stealing the ballot boxes and shutting down the online voting platforms only to hide behind the argument that the referendum isn't valid because of how it was conducted.
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    (Original post by Ganjaweed Rebel)
    It's more like the Catalans attempted to hold a free and fair referendum and the Spanish police started physically abusing them, stealing the ballot boxes and shutting down the online voting platforms only to hide behind the argument that the referendum isn't valid because of how it was conducted.
    The government told them no, and they did it anyway. Regardless of whether we think that's fine of them or bad of them, that would class them as rebellious. You've not actually detracted from my point here mate.
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    (Original post by Retired_Messiah)
    The government told them no, and they did it anyway. Regardless of whether we think that's fine of them or bad of them, that would class them as rebellious. You've not actually detracted from my point here mate.
    Does this mean the existence of the USA is illegal because they didn't gain the UK's approval before breaking off?

    You don't actually have a point.
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    (Original post by Ganjaweed Rebel)
    Does this mean the existence of the USA is illegal because they didn't gain the UK's approval before breaking off?

    You don't actually have a point.
    Point was what Madrid was doing is a dumb idea. Your reply was arguing against something I'd never actually said. The US's declaration of independence would've been declared illegal by GB at the time I assume, hence a war of independence as opposed to an "on you go then lads good luck have fun".
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    But unless Catalonians are prepared to engage in some serious warfare what can they do about it? They have no big armed force that can compete with the spannish state. There would have to be a flip in allegiance of the forces of the Spannish state. That or Catalanians engage in some serious militant general strike stuff.
    Not saying this will happen, but they could do what Kosovo did in the early 1990s - set up parallel structures, combined with other feasible modes of non-cooperation with Spain like strikes and whatnot. Madrid has already shown itself unable to resist using violence to crack down on this kind of thing, so provoke them into trying again.
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    (Original post by Ganjaweed Rebel)
    It's more like the Catalans attempted to hold a free and fair referendum and the Spanish police started physically abusing them, stealing the ballot boxes and shutting down the online voting platforms only to hide behind the argument that the referendum isn't valid because of how it was conducted.
    One **** PO was dragging a voter by her hair! EU are *****, had it been NK they'd be condemning etc etc but no as it's a EU member. Thank**** UK left. Even now they're trying to rinse us as the CASH COW is GONE!

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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    The turnout for the illegal Catalonian referendum was 43%.
    The turnout for Brexit was 64%.

    Just because a high % allegedly voted leave doesnt make it any more legitimate as 59% didnt vote, theres no verification of the figures and the no voters will have stayed away. It might be they would still have won, but that vote hasnt taken place yet.

    Bexit was legal and the Catalonian one was not .

    For changes to happen on this level they tend to have to be legal, which would be according to the rule of law. the UK referendum was debated and sanctioned by the UK government.. Constitutional changes tend to require a 2/3 majority in parliamentary vote. All depends what the Spanish constitution says.

    If they want to go ahead an secede, then other countries will not recognise them. That means no EU and no UN. It also means many banks and financial institutions wont have anything to do with them either.
    That just encourages the Spanish people to actively deny people in Catalonia the right to self determination and it has been shown that the Spanish government will use violence to stop a vote from happening, the decision to remove Catalonia’s. Autonomy only further strengthens their claim.
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    (Original post by Zxyn)
    I believe before independence is declared, Catalonia should hold a proper referendum like Scotland had in 2014, with both sides having a campaign. With turnout below 50% (most people didn't turnout because they didn't recognise it as legitimate) and they weren't informed with what independence would actually mean. In other words it was a referendum held illegally with only one side being promoted and it had poor results anyway.
    Cool now what would you do in the real world when violence is used by the Spanish government to stop a referendum? Do you give in to the violent side?
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    That just encourages the Spanish people to actively deny people in Catalonia the right to self determination and it has been shown that the Spanish government will use violence to stop a vote from happening, the decision to remove Catalonia’s. Autonomy only further strengthens their claim.
    What are you on? If they dont do things legally then they are not going to be recognised.. You mentioned a stat that was misleading or inaccurate. It was retarded.
 
 
 
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