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Spain moves to suspend Catalonia's autonomy watch

  • View Poll Results: Should Spain allow Catalonia to declare independence?
    Yes, it's only fair after the referendum.
    49.83%
    No, the referendum was illegal.
    24.30%
    Unsure.
    25.87%

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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    It was correct, a higher proportion of Catalonians voted for independence (38.5%v37.4%)

    So basically Spain can oppress the people in Catalonia and deny them this right and you are on board with it
    hehe missing the point it was illegal and flawed because masses of people stayed away from the vote for that very reason. Its a completely bollox statistic.
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    hehe missing the point it was illegal and flawed because masses of people stayed away from the vote for that very reason. Its a completely bollox statistic.
    The closest to an actual referendum as will happen because the Spanish government has shown they have no problem in attacking citizens to deny them rights, this shows that the Spanish government is not ruling by consent but instead by force and is therefore a illegitimate body in Catalonia.
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    Good, last thing we need is countries splitting off.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    The closest to an actual referendum as will happen because the Spanish government has shown they have no problem in attacking citizens to deny them rights, this shows that the Spanish government is not ruling by consent but instead by force and is therefore a illegitimate body in Catalonia.
    You are just getting weirder now.. The police were heavy handed and went over the top, they were however enforcing what the courts had confirmed was the law. You seem to have a big problem with doing things legally. f they want to leave then its up to them to negotiate with the rest of the Spanish government the opportunity to do so just like the SNP did. Notwithstanding the fact you are unable to differentiate the difference between a legal and an illegal referendum or able to appreciate why its important. Fortunately everyone else can.
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    You are just getting weirder now.. The police were heavy handed and went over the top, they were however enforcing what the courts had confirmed was the law. You seem to have a big problem with doing things legally. f they want to leave then its up to them to negotiate with the rest of the Spanish government the opportunity to do so just like the SNP did. Notwithstanding the fact you are unable to differentiate the difference between a legal and an illegal referendum or able to appreciate why its important. Fortunately everyone else can.
    It is a unjust law.

    You are saying that the Spanish are right to oppress a group of people?

    Thoughts on American independence should we have stopped that?

    It seems the plurality of people agree with me.

    How can the catalonians negotiate that when the Spanish refuse? It is also their right to self determination, so what right does any government have to deny them that?

    If this was happening in any non-western country their would be international outrage but because it’s not it has been brushed under the carpet.
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    The referendum was declared illegal beforehand , but the regional government went ahead with it. Only 41% of people voted and the credibility of things like vote counting have been questioned. the result was supposedly 90% in favour, but we know from previous opinion polls its much closer than that along the 50/50 line.

    So what happened to the 59% who stayed away? Much more likely they didnt vote because they werent in favour and also they recognised the vote was illegal.

    If they do secede, then they need a legal vote and a larger portion of the population need to take part. Normally for big changes, then its at least 2/3. If they want to, then I hope they get to vote. If it happens, then it will happen in a lot of other countries with regions wanting to break free.
    Supermajorities are only in favour of the status quo and in fear of short term consequences. Thoughts?
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    (Original post by Rorschach II)
    Supermajorities are only in favour of the status quo and in fear of short term consequences. Thoughts?

    Yes for status quo, but things change where they might recognise a referendum should be allowed. It doesnt mean the status quo stays forever, although it could be a long time.

    As for the other point I think they fear short and long term consequences, which are very real and to be avoided.

    If you dont recognise due process, then you would have chaos. Lets say catalan seeded, would it be happy if villages and towns within its borders started declaring independence? Chaos.
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    Scotland should also become independent and Northern Ireland should reunify with the Republic of Ireland.
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    (Original post by Paracosm)
    See, I agree with you. I think that Spain is only delaying the inevitable considering the lengths Catalonians have gone to already to protect their sovereignty. I don't claim to understand the whole situation though, so I'm really interested in people's thoughts to better form my own opinion.
    I'm not a huge supporter of Catalan independence, to me, it looks like the Lombard Leagues in N. Italy, a rebellion of the wealthy. However, Madrid has behaved very badly, not least in their handling of the financial crash and the chaos in Spain's economic situation, so although the latter is improving, it's not hard to see why the most materially advantaged part of Spain would want to secede. That said, I don't think it makes sense for Europe to fracture into ever smaller units and I don't think it's a moral rebellion of the oppressed, more like an aristocratic withdrawal of capital.

    The same themes can be seen in Scottish independence to some extent - the SNP only flourished when the Scots became excited by the prospect that they might be able to seize the oil revenues for themselves. Every revolution at the moment is a revolution of the selfish.
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    I'm surprised so many people have voted 'Yes' in this poll - less than half of the people who were eligible to vote in the referendum did so, the majority of Catalans do not support independence. Many people did not vote because they believed, rightly, that the referendum was illegal anyway.

    As I understand it, the Spanish constitution makes clear that the nation of Spain is indivisible and individual regions cannot simply break away. Spain is not alone in this, the United States has a similar clause in its constitution. If you want to have a philosophical debate about the limits of self-determination then go ahead, but until / unless the Spanish constitution is amended, the Spanish government has a duty to maintain the unity of the country, even if that means imposing direct rule.
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    Freedom is not won at the ballot box, its won with sword and fire. Will the Catalans fight for their freedom, will the streets of Barcelona run with the blood of patriots?
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    Any riots? Violence yet? Or they gone home :facepalm:

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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    It is a unjust law.

    You are saying that the Spanish are right to oppress a group of people?

    Thoughts on American independence should we have stopped that?

    It seems the plurality of people agree with me.

    How can the catalonians negotiate that when the Spanish refuse? It is also their right to self determination, so what right does any government have to deny them that?

    If this was happening in any non-western country their would be international outrage but because it’s not it has been brushed under the carpet.
    It was wrong of Spain to use violence against those people however it doesn't change the fact it was illegal. They have to use democracy by voting politicians in favour of independence, and protest to show Madrid they want independence, not just announce an illegal referendum.

    We did try to stop American Independence but there was a war and they won.

    I disagree with your last point as well, the UN hasn't done much about the Rohingya Muslims despite the amount of coverage on it.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    Freedom is not won at the ballot box, its won with sword and fire. Will the Catalans fight for their freedom, will the streets of Barcelona run with the blood of patriots?
    No is the quick answer.

    It's not even supported by a majority of Catalans. The independence faction are like the SNP in Scotland, fighting an endless nationalist battle for a viewpoint not shared by their country.
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    (Original post by itsfantanoo)
    People are more obsessed with the technicalities and following bureaucratic rule of law than ACTUAL democracy.

    Sorry, but if the Catalonia and its people want independence then someone who wants to uphold democracy must allow for their independence.
    Democracy cannot exist outside of the rule of law. It is the foundation on which a democratic state is based. Without a body of rules, voting is quite simply pointless - and without a clear understanding of the structure of powers that can make laws, then the rules decided upon by the people have no effect.

    What we saw in Catalonia was not some great act of democracy, but rather a parody of it. A bit like back in the 2000s when a homophobic businessman organised a private postal referendum in Scotland, sent out "ballot papers" to every household and asked people if they wanted to retain Section 28 (the widely condemned bit of institutionalised homophobia that sought to lessen the status of gay relationships). He got the result he wanted - but thankfully the thing was repealed across the UK, and rightly so.

    Paper-thin charades of voting are not democracy, they are an attack on the rules that the people have made.
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    (Original post by Daniel100499)
    I think it’s wrong for Spain to suspend their autonomy, if Catalonia wants to be independent, and they can support themselves with minimal help from Spain, then there’s no reason why they should not be allowed to become independent
    Of course there are plenty of reasons. For one, granting a unilateral right of secession to one bit of a country is inherently special treatment unless it's pretty much granted to two eejits with a plot of land.

    Nationalism, particularly, is a huge problem and we only have to look around the world to see the conflict that it brings. It suggests that rights accede to nations, which its ideologues assume the sole right to determine. When these subjective judgements clash, then we see situations like Israel/Palestine or the Troubles in Ireland.

    From a financial perspective it's also daft. Imagine a state puts large sums of redistributed money into a region to invest in infrastructure, with the understanding that it will be recouped in stronger economic activity. Imagine then that the region in question secedes, shafts the central government and keeps the benefits for itself.

    It does not even have to be full secession: how can a central government govern under the constant threat of secession? How then can it exercise power when the ultimate power to disband the state remains with its regions?
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    It is a unjust law.

    You are saying that the Spanish are right to oppress a group of people?
    Oppression in this context being what? Enforcing the Spanish constitution? If you're calling that oppressive, then I think you're moving well beyond basic common sense.

    Thoughts on American independence should we have stopped that?
    The American colonies were not part of the United Kingdom, they were a colonial possession. We settled this question early in the post-war era: that people have a right to participate fully in their own government. If they do not, then their relationships are voluntary.

    Catalan people self-govern as a part of Spain: they have a full and equal right to participate in its democratic institutions. That is entirely different from a colonial relationship.

    To turn the question around, presumably you view that the Confederacy had a full right to secede, and Lincoln's appeals to democratic values in maintaining the Union were meaningless?

    How can the catalonians negotiate that when the Spanish refuse?
    The Spanish Government has a right to insist that the law is upheld. The Catalan Government does not have a right to insist on dialogue on this issue. Anything beyond that is a political question: if you want something politically then in a democratic state you go about achieving it in accordance with the law.

    It is also their right to self determination, so what right does any government have to deny them that?
    Self-determination does not imply a right to unilateral secession. That point is entirely clear in law.
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    The referendum was illegal. You can't just organise an illegal referendum and use it to declare independence. The constitution would have to be changed before Catalionians can legally vote.
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    (Original post by God Almighty)
    Obvious troll spewing rubbish. They didn't know Catalonia would vote to leave and there is no evidence to show that. The Spanish state rightly and lawfully stopped an illegal referendum and they would have done the same to any unauthorised referendum in any region of Spain, regardless of the predicted outcome.
    Humans should be free to associate in mutual willingness rather than begging the permission of some who abuse their own people.
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    Regardless of the legality of the referendum the Spanish governments respnse, both leading up to and after the vote has been appalling and will surely end up being counter productive.


    That is of course unless you think that sending riot police to beat up peaceful protesters, including women and children, is something to be congratulated, in which case you'd be proving many of the Catalan independance activists correct.
 
 
 
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