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    (Original post by J-SP)
    That table clearly shows the much bigger issue that Lammy was trying to highlight than the geographical one. Unfortunately I am not surprised by any of those stats.
    So you're not surprised that the percentage of Black applicants (3%) matches their percentage representation in the UK population? Or perhaps you're not surprised that the percentage of applications from the BME as a whole at 22.3% greatly exceeds their representation in the UK population as a whole?
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    Sorry if I have posted this already - the app keeps crashing on me everytime I go to post.

    Thank you for taking the time to find this and post it.

    This is even more damning than the BAME table and is where we should really be focusing this debate.

    The geographical point is one that almost universities will have, but no one will have a go at Hull for not getting enough Surrey applicants and then making enough offers.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    There's a difference between a fix and a move in the right direction. All the higher status universities in the UK officially proclaim a desire to widen access. The question is, are they succeeding and if not, why not?
    Are they doing better? Yes I think they are. Could they do more? Yes for sure.

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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    So you're not surprised that the percentage of Black applicants (3%) matches their percentage representation in the UK population? Or perhaps you're not surprised that the percentage of applications from the BME as a whole at 22.3% greatly exceeds their representation in the UK population as a whole?
    No I’m not surprised by either of those points having worked in diversity in the early careers sector since 2005.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    Sorry if I have posted this already - the app keeps crashing on me everytime I go to post.

    Thank you for taking the time to find this and post it.

    This is even more damning than the BAME table and is where we should really be focusing this debate.

    The geographical point is one that almost universities will have, but no one will have a go at Hull for not getting enough Surrey applicants and then making enough offers.
    The POLAR offer rates don't seem to vary hugely by POLAR group. Again the challenge is getting POLAR 1 & 2 (and indeed 3) to apply.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    The POLAR offer rates don't seem to vary hugely by POLAR group. Again the challenge is getting POLAR 1 &2 to apply.
    I must be reading the data wrong (looking at it on a small screen). But I read it as some in Quintile 5 has nearly twice the success rate than someone in Quintile 1 (30.6 vs 16.9). That doesn’t seem right to me if that is correct.

    Or am I reading it wrong?

    I can only see that the higher the Quintile group, the higher the chances of success, leading to the highest Quintile group being over offered and the lowest being under offered (assuming everything else is equal),
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    (Original post by Akamega)
    But more than just getting academic levels up to scratch, we need to teach working class students to cope in middle-upper class environments. When I went to university and started to socialise with people from middle class backgrounds, I **** you not, it was like moving to another country. The culture shock was immense, and I don't even go to an incredibly impressive university. The alienation that ethnic minority and working class students must feel at Oxbridge is probably far worse.
    FWIW, my sister went to a fairly mid-range university and seemed to have far more culture shock (people from Roedean etc.) that I experienced at Cambridge. (Although I specifically went to a college with a high state school percentage).

    But (as someone mixed-race from London, although people generally consider me white), the lack of black students was pretty shocking. And obviously if you know there are virtually no black students, it's got to be pretty off putting if you're black.

    [It should be noted that I'm sure that's not unheard of in other places - lots of times I travel out of London and it feels like the place I'm in is incredibly white].
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    Totally agree that its not just about Oxbridge. I realise that I am privileged to be a black student at a private school, 1 of 3 in my year. I also realise that my school literally drills us to get all A*s in all our exams and that if I went to a state school, this may not be achievable. The problem lies within the huge discrepancy between state and private school teaching. However there is also a problem in that there aren't enough minority groups in the top performing private schools which Oxbridge takes most of their students from. Why is this? It's a cycle. Oxbridge students are likely to receive high paying jobs. People in high paying jobs can afford to put their children in private schools. These children then end up doing well and go Oxbridge and the cycle continues. So Oxbridge do have a part to play in offering places to more ethnic minorities. However, the whole education system needs to change.
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    I really find your posts on this subject really worrying Doonesbury.

    You have argued at every opportunity that there is no unfairness even when David Lammy, Stephen Kinnock and the Universities themselves are saying there is worrying social injustice when it comes to Oxbridge applications.

    You say that Oxbridge shouldn't have to fix the problem when this is an education issue and they are the two most important and prestigious educational establishments in the UK, if not the world.

    Basically, you are trying to claim that if underrepresented people, black, Northern, Welsh to name a few aren't getting into Oxbridge it's because they aren't good enough. In fact, that's exactly what you said in your statement that the admissions process are mostly getting it right.

    I'll say it again, that the deck is rigged. You don't accept that Doonesbury, but your views are, I believe, at odds with most right thinking people on this issue.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    I must be reading the data wrong (looking at it on a small screen). But I read it as some in Quintile 5 has nearly twice the success rate than someone in Quintile 1 (30.6 vs 16.9). That doesn’t seem right to me if that is correct.

    Or am I reading it wrong?

    I can only see that the higher the Quintile group, the higher the chances of success, leading to the highest Quintile group being over offered and the lowest being under offered (assuming everything else is equal),
    Success rate on that table is for Acceptances not Offers.

    Quintile 1
    502 Applicants
    126 Offers (25.1% Offer rate)
    85 Acceptances (16.9% Acceptance rate)

    Quintile 4
    2,270 Applicants
    690 Offers (30.3% Offer rate)
    562 Acceptances (24.8 Acceptance Rate)

    Working out the Offer rate for all quintiles:
    Q5 35.8%
    Q4 30.3%
    Q3 27.8%
    Q2 28.7%
    Q1 25.1%

    So yes the "better" the quintile the better the offer rate but it's not as dramatic as it might appear.
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    (Original post by AnaBaptist)
    I really find your posts on this subject really worrying Doonesbury.

    You have argued at every opportunity that there is no unfairness even when David Lammy, Stephen Kinnock and the Universities themselves are saying there is worrying social injustice when it comes to Oxbridge applications.

    You say that Oxbridge shouldn't have to fix the problem when this is an education issue and they are the two most important and prestigious educational establishments in the UK, if not the world.

    Basically, you are trying to claim that if underrepresented people, black, Northern, Welsh to name a few aren't getting into Oxbridge it's because they aren't good enough. In fact, that's exactly what you said in your statement that the admissions process are mostly getting it right.

    I'll say it again, that the deck is rigged. You don't accept that Doonesbury, but your views are, I believe, at odds with most right thinking people on this issue.
    Did you miss this?

    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Are they doing better? Yes I think they are. Could they do more? Yes for sure.

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    (Original post by DFranklin)
    FWIW, lots of times I travel out of London and it feels like the place I'm in is incredibly white].
    Of course they are. Would you express surprise that South Africa is "incredibly" black?

    Western European countries are predominantly white, indeed at the last Census in 2011, the UK was 86% white.

    I don't see your point.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Success rate on that table is for Acceptances not Offers.

    Quintile 1
    502 Applicants
    126 Offers (25.1% Offer rate)
    85 Acceptances (16.9% Acceptance rate)

    Quintile 4
    2,270 Applicants
    690 Offers (30.3% Offer rate)
    562 Acceptances (24.8 Acceptance Rate)

    Working out the Offer rate for all quintiles:
    Q5 35.8%
    Q4 30.3%
    Q3 27.8%
    Q2 28.7%
    Q1 25.1%

    So yes the "better" the quintile the better the offer rate but it's not as dramatic as it might appear.
    A 10% difference is still an issue and I disagree with you that it is figures are "similar". To me all I can see is a significant diffence and a downward trend.

    Given these stats we also have to ask why the acceptance rate compounds the situation. I questioned this earlier in the thread and someone responded by saying it was unlikely to have an impact on the diversity of those who are offered vs who accepts. This suggests otherwise.
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    Of course they are. Would you express surprise that South Africa is "incredibly" black?
    No, but I know that's a different country and population. [Although in fact, having been to South Africa, the places I went were not "incredibly black" - I saw white people all over the place - a minority, but definitely present].

    Western European countries are predominantly white, indeed at the last Census in 2011, the UK was 86% white.
    That's not what I'm meaning by incredibly white, FWIW, I'm meaning "I've been walking around here all day, and I don't think I've seen a single black person". Lots of places like that in the UK once you get out of the cities.

    I don't see your point.
    I'm just saying that it would perhaps be unfair to single out Cambridge for this when I'm sure it holds for a lot of other places too. (A friend of a friend was once in a village in Wales and found everyone staring at her. It was sheepishly explained that no one in the village had ever seen a black person before. (This was also about 30 years ago)).

    Edit: although I feel this is probably all getting OT.
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    (Original post by Carbon Dioxide)
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41664459
    ...OK, so I've hardly come up with Fermat's Last Theorem there, but according to FOI data acquired by David Lammy (a Labour MP), Oxford and Cambridge are understood to be mostly sending offers to the more well-off regions of England (mostly southern, some northern - about half of ALL offers go to those in London and the south-east). Around 80% of applicants are also understood to be in the top two social classes.

    Point of consideration: Is Oxbridge really turning more inaccessible, is this a case of same-old-same-old, or is this just a quirk in the system?
    Try getting a few A*s at A level whilst having a saturday job and being at a state school, it's hard. Thos that can afford not to work and solely focus on their A levels will do better, and get into Oxbridge.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    A 10% difference is still an issue and I disagree with you that it is figures are "similar". To me all I can see is a significant diffence and a downward trend.

    Given these stats we also have to ask why the acceptance rate compounds the situation. I questioned this earlier in the thread and someone responded by saying it was unlikely to have an impact. This suggests otherwise.
    Yes, fair comment, they are less "similar" than I first thought but probably more similar than you also first thought

    If I get a chance I'll dig out the table for 2011 and see if it has "improved".

    Perhaps, and I'm guessing, the POLAR 1 and 2 applicants have a higher proportion of aspiring Maths students. If so STEP results in a roughly 50% failure rate and therefore an adverse Applicant success rate.

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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Did you miss this?
    No I didn't miss that.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Success rate on that table is for Acceptances not Offers.

    Quintile 1
    502 Applicants
    126 Offers (25.1% Offer rate)
    85 Acceptances (16.9% Acceptance rate)

    Quintile 4
    2,270 Applicants
    690 Offers (30.3% Offer rate)
    562 Acceptances (24.8 Acceptance Rate)

    Working out the Offer rate for all quintiles:
    Q5 35.8%
    Q4 30.3%
    Q3 27.8%
    Q2 28.7%
    Q1 25.1%

    So yes the "better" the quintile the better the offer rate but it's not as dramatic as it might appear.
    It's dramatic for the people who live in poor areas when they realise their rich Southern counterparts have a 10% better chance of being accepted into Oxbridge.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Yes, fair comment, they are less "similar" than I first thought but probably more similar than you also first thought

    If I get a chance I'll dig out the table for 2011 and see if it has "improved".

    Perhaps, and I'm guessing, the POLAR 1 and 2 applicants have a higher proportion of aspiring Maths students. If so STEP results in a roughly 50% failure rate and therefore an adverse Applicant success rate.

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    I was actually expecting it to be better than this To me this is dire.

    I'd love to see the equivalent for languages and arts courses. They would probably make this look practically positive.
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    (Original post by AnaBaptist)
    It's dramatic for the people who live in poor areas when they realise their rich Southern counterparts have a 10% better chance of being accepted into Oxbridge.
    I *think*, and I have no stats to back this up, that "people who live in poor areas" expect the difference to be even worse. Perhaps that's why not enough of them apply in the first place.
 
 
 
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