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    (Original post by J-SP)
    The finances go well beyond their real estate or their museums. They are the mega wealthy when it comes to their revenue, and other universities, even the biggest and more reputable, only have a fraction of what Oxbridge has. We are talking billions vs hundreds of millions.

    It is great to have that belief and passion, but it doesn’t mean some of the things you have said are true or even near reflective. That is what I am trying to get across to you.

    I am not having a go at either university as I have huge amounts of respect for them. But like you, I strongly believe something. And that belief is that there are certain factors that as a business they need to consider, and that hinders diversity on some level - probably where they are factors designed/constructed/funded by rich white men. For every academic who doesn’t give two hoots about a student’s background (and I hope they wouldn’t), there are people running the business side of things who are more concerned about the numbers than the diversity.
    They may be relatively (very) wealthy but consider that Cambridge spend about £1000 per place on Outreach (£4.4 million for 4,400 undergraduate places). This excludes the additional £6.5 million provided to students via bursaries every year and there's the cost per place of the admissions process (interviews by 4 staff, multiple hours spent reviewing each application, etc).

    And then on the income side the tuition fees don't even cover the tuition costs for Cambridge given the supervision system, etc. The international fees are a truer reflection of the real cost of their costs.

    Their endowments are worth about £6 billion. A huge sum. But that's not a liquid asset. The yield (income) is relatively small.

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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    They may be relatively (very) wealthy but consider that Cambridge spend about £1000 per place on Outreach (£4.4 million for 4,400 places). This excludes the additional £6 million provided to students via bursaries every year and there's the cost per place of the admissions process (interviews by 4 staff, multiple hours spent reviewing each application, etc).

    And then on the income side the tuition fees don't even cover the tuition costs for Cambridge given the supervision system, etc. The international fees are a truer reflection of the real cost of their costs.

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    I understand all of that. I still don’t think it proportionate or enough - but that’s just my opinion. I wouldn’t count the admissions process though.

    Ultimately they have more finances to do more, no matter how much more expensive their tuition system or their admissions processes. And the effort they do put is not working on certain levels. Maybe they just need to rethink their strategy and approach.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    I understand all of that. I still don’t think it proportionate or enough - but that’s just my opinion. I wouldn’t count the admissions process though.

    Ultimately they have more finances to do more, no matter how much more expensive their tuition system or their admissions processes. And the effort they do put is not working on certain levels. Maybe they just need to rethink their strategy and approach.
    They can never win, can they’?
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    (Original post by vincrows)
    They can never win, can they’?
    Well they win in lots of other areas, so maybe they aren’t worried about winning this particular battle.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    The finances go well beyond their real estate or their museums. They are the mega wealthy when it comes to their revenue, and other universities, even the biggest and more reputable, only have a fraction of what Oxbridge has. We are talking billions vs hundreds of millions.

    It is great to have that belief and passion, but it doesn’t mean some of the things you have said are true or even near reflective. That is what I am trying to get across to you.

    I am not having a go at either university as I have huge amounts of respect for them. But like you, I strongly believe something. And that belief is that there are certain factors that as a business they need to consider, and that hinders diversity on some level - probably where they are factors designed/constructed/funded by rich white men. For every academic who doesn’t give two hoots about a student’s background (and I hope they wouldn’t), there are people running the business side of things who are more concerned about the numbers than the diversity.
    But given that all home students pay the same fees, and it's alumni not parents who generally donate, even the numbers don't vary depending on who you admit, so they wouldn't care either.
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    (Original post by Duncan2012)
    What's wrong with having elite universities take the highest-achieving students? Personally, I couldn't care less whether Oxbridge was made up completely of miners' children from Newcastle, refugees, asylum seekers or doctors' children from Chelsea, if they're the highest performing of all applicants. Everyone is able to apply to Oxbridge - work hard, apply yourself in school, have some ambition and you'll stand a chance.

    FWIW I didn't get in to Cambridge.
    because many talented students miss out, who for whatever dont have the required extra curricular activities(because the school didnt offer them) or come from families that cant afford private tutors
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    (Original post by Etoile)
    But given that all home students pay the same fees, and it's alumni not parents who generally donate, even the numbers don't vary depending on who you admit, so they wouldn't care either.
    It really doesn’t work like that. Large donors are not usually parents.
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    (Original post by hannah00)
    because many talented students miss out, who for whatever dont have the required extra curricular activities(because the school didnt offer them) or come from families that cant afford private tutors
    They only care about super circular activities ie activities directly related to your subject. Last time I checked, it didn't cost anything to participate in the lower sixth chemistry challenge or as physics challenge. Also I don't think private tutors are very helpful if you are capable enough to be an oxbridge candidate although private and grammar schools will undoubtedly have a better learning environment that push the top students further.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    It really doesn’t work like that. Large donors are not usually parents.
    Yes, that's what I'm saying. Given that the donors are not parents, students' backgrounds don't matter from a financial perspective.

    (Original post by hannah00)
    because many talented students miss out, who for whatever dont have the required extra curricular activities(because the school didnt offer them) or come from families that cant afford private tutors
    They don't care about extra-curriculars. They want you to demonstrate your interest in the subject, which you can do for free by reading extra books from the library. You also shouldn't need a private tutor.
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    (Original post by Etoile)
    Yes, that's what I'm saying. Given that the donors are not parents, students' backgrounds don't matter from a financial perspective.
    But other factors from a financial perspective do, and indirectly they can work against those trying to make a change.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    But other factors from a financial perspective do, and indirectly they can work against those trying to make a change.
    Such as what?
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    (Original post by Etoile)
    They don't care about extra-curriculars. They want you to demonstrate your interest in the subject, which you can do for free by reading extra books from the library. You also shouldn't need a private tutor.
    Although getting access to a library isn’t always as straight forward. People really don’t understand that deprivation filters down to the basics like public services and access to them.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    Although getting access to a library isn’t always as straight forward. People really don’t understand that deprivation filters down to the basics like public services and access to them.
    Most schools have a library....

    There's also plenty of stuff available online for free via things like Project Gutenberg and iTunes U which people can access using their school's computers.
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    (Original post by Etoile)
    Such as what?
    Anything related to brand, reputation and prestige usually. Having seen how six figure sponsorship deals are formulated with Oxbridge, I’ve seen how unimportant diversity is then despite the sponsor’s interests in it and on how the money is invested.
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    (Original post by Etoile)
    Most schools have a library....

    There's also plenty of stuff available online for free via things like Project Gutenberg and iTunes U which people can access using their school's computers.
    There’s plenty of school without libraries. And those that do have them don’t always have the type of books or resources you are suggesting. As I streSsed before, deprivation filters down to the very basic factors that the majority of us take for granted.

    Getting online again isn’t always as easy as you are suggesting. Many in the lowest social economic groups will not have free and easy access to any of the things you have suggested so far, especially when you are talking about high end products like Apple.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    There’s plenty of school without libraries. And those that do have them don’t always have the type of books you are suggesting.

    Getting online again isn’t always as easy as you are suggesting. Many in the lowest social economic groups will not have free and easy access to any of the things you have suggested so far, especially when you are talking about high end products like Apple.
    Even my comprehensive school in a deprived area which was declared inadequate by Ofsted had a library and a couple of computers. School libraries tend to have books on the subjects they teach like English, history, textbooks etc. I studied MML which is not generally covered by the books in libraries, so I watched films on youtube and listened to music and online radio stations and read the news online - all for free at school. And you don't need an Apple product to use iTunes U - it's a free section of the iTunes store which you can access from a Windows computer. Even my DSA-provided laptop can cope with it.

    (Original post by J-SP)
    Anything related to brand, reputation and prestige usually. Having seen how six figure sponsorship deals are formulated with Oxbridge, I’ve seen how unimportant diversity is then despite the sponsor’s interests in it and on how the money is invested.
    So you're saying academics want diversity and sponsors want diversity but jobsworths managing the money actively don't?
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    (Original post by Etoile)
    So you're saying academics want diversity and sponsors want diversity but jobsworths managing the money actively don't?
    No, I’m saying that there are institutionalised issues that work against diversity. It isn’t unique to Oxford though.

    Then you were fortunate, not everyone will have had the same opportunities as you.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    No, I’m saying that there are institutionalised issues that work against diversity. It isn’t unique to Oxford though.

    Then you were fortunate, not everyone will have had the same opportunities as you.
    It's not unique to Oxford but they're the only place you're complaining about doing it?

    I suppose I was fortunate to have a library - shame my school didn't have any English or science teachers though, maybe we should have sold the books :lol:
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    (Original post by Etoile)
    It's not unique to Oxford but they're the only place you're complaining about doing it?

    I suppose I was fortunate to have a library - shame my school didn't have any English or science teachers though, maybe we should have sold the books :lol:
    FFS 🙄.

    I’m not complaining, I just think they can do more, and that comparatively there are better examples out there that they should aspire to, especially given how bad their stats are. If we were talking about other universities/institutions/sectors/business, I may have an opinion on them too but they have never come up in the discussion, especially considering your own focus has only been Oxford or possible Oxbridge centric in this discussion.
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    (Original post by Etoile)
    Most schools have a library....

    There's also plenty of stuff available online for free via things like Project Gutenberg and iTunes U which people can access using their school's computers.
    Most school libraries are stocked with fiction and some low-level non fiction/outdated encyclopaedias
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