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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    .:youbetcha:

    Tried to give you an upvote and am met yet again with : "please rate some other members before rating this member again".

    Last time I successfully upvoted you was two days ago.

    Has OFFA dictated quotas for the TSR too?
    :teehee: I receive approx 1 rep point for every ~5 attempts. :smug: I like to think this makes me 'elite' but not as elite as the folks over at the 11-levels of the stratosphere.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    :teehee: I receive approx 1 rep point for every ~5 attempts. :smug: I like to think this makes me 'elite' but not as elite as the folks over at the 11-levels of the stratosphere.

    "I receive approx 1 rep point for every ~5 attempts."

    Well, that's really fair

    I hear they had the same problem voting in Catalonia recently.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    :teehee: I receive approx 1 rep point for every ~5 attempts. :smug: I like to think this makes me 'elite' but not as elite as the folks over at the 11-levels of the stratosphere.
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    Wut?!

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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
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    Wut?!

    The clue's in the user name - they're full of surprises... :getmecoat:
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    (Original post by DFranklin)
    No, it's not the *same* rate. But it's close. As I said before, you look at the overall picture, and 80% of the issue is the lack of AAA grades, and maybe 20% is acceptance rates. You keep harpiing on about the 20% difference (*), but even if fixed there would still be a massive discrepancy due to how few black students come out of our education system with AAA.

    Contextualised admissions doesn't mean "anyone can get in, whatever their exam results". Being controversial in my own right, what people outside the process tend not to realise is that by Oxbridge standards, AAA is a really low bar. The fact of the matter is that if you can only get AAA, you're unlikely to be made an offer. But it's the contextualised admissions process that means that "you still get looked at even if your likely A-level grades are AAA, in case we think we see some potential that A-levels are missing".

    I think the race issue is the emotive one (and I also think, as I posted elsewhere, that if you come from/work in London, it's the slightly shocking one when you visit an Oxbridge college. Although again, in reality that's at least as much to do with London being an outlier than Oxbridge].

    (*) There are also statistical reasons to say that much, if not all of that 20% is either due to subject choice and scores within subjects. But you've kind of indicated you don't want in depth stats discussion, so I'm ignoring that for now.
    I'm quite happy to have a in depth stats conversation. You just need to explain it to me in plain English. Not all of us are as clued up on these things.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    See my post immediately prior to yours

    But yes A*s at A-level are a good predictor of Tripos (Cambridge degree) success
    https://www.cao.cam.ac.uk/sites/www....erformance.pdf

    I guess it's not surprising given the academic nature of an Oxbridge course.

    And note: "Equally well qualified students (in terms of A* grades achieved) from state and independent schools and colleges are equally likely to prosper in the first year of Tripos, i.e. there is no ‘sector gap’;"

    A POLAR sub-analysis of this data would be useful.
    This to me suggests more of the access courses could be the answer. Why not give the individual the chance to perform at the equivalent of A* grades during a foundation year, especially with the support of highly reputable academics and all the college support systems. Also allows people to try out the university and try to get passed any preconceived ideas about how diverse/undiverse it is, and potentially feel like they could integrate without having to make a three year commitment.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    This to me suggests more of the access courses could be the answer. Why not give the individual the chance to perform at the equivalent of A* grades during a foundation year, especially with the support of highly reputable academics and all the college support systems. Also allows people to try out the university and try to get passed any preconceived ideas about how diverse/undiverse it is, and potentially feel like they could integrate without having to make a three year commitment.
    Agreed
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Agreed
    :dance:
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    Randomly came across while at a client’s office today and now reading it purely because of this thread...Name:  AD9CA522-B542-4BE7-9CFE-A94A5C5383C1.jpg
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    I'm quite happy to have a in depth stats conversation. You just need to explain it to me in plain English. Not all of us are as clued up on these things.
    Well, if you assume scores for a given group (could be socio-economic, could be by ethnicity) are normally distributed, and that group A underperforms group B by a certain amount (could be %age, could be absolute, it doesn't really matter as long as the amount is not too large), then you would expect that if you need to score X for interview, but Y for acceptance (where Y > X and both are large enough to be well into the 'tail' of the distribution), then you'd expect a higher falloff in group A between interview and acceptance than you would for group B. And these effects all get more extreme as you probe towards the extremes of the population.

    It's therefore not necessarily surprising, or an indicator of bias (*), that we see inequality growing between interview and acceptance.

    (*) You could call it bias in terms of not making allowances. But I think people see (made up figures follow): "10% of AAA+ black applicants get in, 20% of AAA+ white applicants get in, that's obviously bias against black applicants" when a completely colour blind process could easily have that result.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
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    Wut?!

    Cough. I meant 12. :blush:
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    :dance:
    The LMH scheme is very new so I imagine the other colleges will be watching with interest so see how the first cohort progresses.

    Overall, the Foundation Year programme:
    • Takes academically able students from disadvantaged socio-economic backgrounds and enables them to fulfil their potential
    • Gives students the teaching and support they need to progress to a full degree either at Oxford or another university.
    • Provides free teaching and accommodation for the duration of the Foundation Year, along with a stipend to cover living expenses
    • Has lowered entrance requirements (e.g. Typically BBB for a course that requires AAA for direct undergraduate applicants at Oxford)
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    "I receive approx 1 rep point for every ~5 attempts."

    Well, that's really fair

    I hear they had the same problem voting in Catalonia recently.
    Vote early and vote often.

    One thing I have noticed in TSR generally is that the more I like another editor, the less I can do about it. Kind of a permanent unrequited love situation. :sad:
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    I think there could also be more information provided to people from disadvantaged backgrounds and marginalised communities in terms of the specifics of the support provided. I know, for instance, that there is a counselling service and pastoral support in the vague sense, but I don't know how long the service lasts/whether it's any good for my (often trans-related) issues/how colleges handle unsupportive parents and the vacation/financial issue mixed in with that.

    This isn't to say it's off-putting as such, but it would be nice to know more or have a greater understanding of how someone like me (disabled, not in a great financial situation, trans) would be supported. I imagine it's much the same for people from ethnic and socio-economic minority backgrounds and it's this lack of information that might make the difference between a teacher saying "I'm not sure you would fit in there" and "you've got good grades, you should give it a go".

    Outreach does do a lot, but it's only a band-aid method compared to tackling false notions about university/improving disadvantaged schools - factors that really will make a difference between an applicant applying vs not.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    The LMH scheme is very new so I imagine the other colleges will be watching with interest so see how the first cohort progresses.
    Really hope it works! It might make other traditional universities who have avoided these programmes also take note and consider it, as well as other colleges.

    Just seen your edit. I suspect they probably have to offer more of the residential support given the costs of moving to and living in Oxford. Good to see there is a reasonable approach to grade entry requirements too.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    Really hope it works! It might make other traditional universities who have avoided these programmes also take note and consider it, as well as other colleges.
    Durham has one - not sure how many other "top" universities do it.

    And LMH is fully-funded, unlike Durham.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Durham has one - not sure how many other "top" universities do it.

    And LMH is fully-funded, unlike Durham.
    Warwick has one, with some funding. It will be a much bigger cohort than LMH though.

    UCL, St Andrews and KCL also have foundation year courses - universities with much lower entry requirements also frequently use them. Some universities do have a tendency to use them for international students as much as from an access perspective.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    Warwick has one, with some funding. It will be a much bigger cohort than LMH though.

    UCL, St Andrews and KCL also have foundation year courses - universities with much lower entry requirements also frequently use them. Some universities do have a tendency to use them for international students as much as from an access perspective.
    Well I was excluding the Scottish ones because they have early years generally anyway.

    And yes many of those schemes (ie. London unis) are more for internationals
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    (Original post by auburnstar)
    I think there could also be more information provided to people from disadvantaged backgrounds and marginalised communities in terms of the specifics of the support provided..
    Oh for goodness sakes!

    Do students need to be spoonfed every single morsel? Why can't these 'people from disadvantaged backgrounds' show a bit of nous and look it up on the university websites for themselves? And if they can't find the answer then send an email? Why does Oxbridge have to spend even more £millions just to save them the effort?

    I am astonished that Oxbridge spends £millions and time on 'outreach' which is basically telling students the universities exist and are happy to receive applications from them. Isn't that the job of any competent secondary school teacher?

    There is unfairness in the Oxbridge process, but it is to be found in the lack of independent scrutiny and public accountability in the admissions process not in whether Oxbridge has spent enough on outreach.
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    Oh for goodness sakes!

    Do students need to be spoonfed every single morsel? Why can't these 'people from disadvantaged backgrounds' show a bit of nous and look it up on the university websites for themselves? And if they can't find the answer then send an email? Why does Oxbridge have to spend even more £millions just to save them the effort?

    I am astonished that Oxbridge spends £millions and time on 'outreach' which is basically telling students the universities exist and are happy to receive applications from them. Isn't that the job of any competent secondary school teacher?

    There is unfairness in the Oxbridge process, but it is to be found in the lack of independent scrutiny and public accountability in the admissions process not in whether Oxbridge has spent enough on outreach.
    Many secondary school teachers are either unencouraging, or actively discouraging, students *they* incorrectly think don't fit the Oxbridge "mould". Most outreach is trying to convince those teachers to think otherwise.

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