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Oxbridge = Inaccessible to most students? Watch

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    (Original post by J-SP)
    Someone doesn't understand how genetics work, nor how wealth can be gained.
    Intelligence is passed on, with offspring averaging an IQ closer to the population average than the parents' IQ. This means that the offspring of intelligent parents are more likely to have high intelligence. Successful, high IQ people tend to marry and have children with other successful, high IQ people.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    Someone doesn't understand how genetics work, nor how wealth can be gained.
    Isn't the poster you're responding to a university lecturer who has an undergrad degree in biology?
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    That doesn't really mean they are more "able" it just means they are more coached. Their potential has been managed far more thoroughly and carefully through private tutition, whether it be through schools or personal tutors. They have been pushed through a system and fast-tracked. Those who haven't had that advantage aren't any less able, their potential just hasn't been facilitated yet.
    Yes, that's completely right. General rules don't apply to everyone.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Intelligence is passed on, with offspring averaging an IQ closer to the population average than the parents' IQ. This means that the offspring of intelligent parents are more likely to have high intelligence. Successful, high IQ people tend to marry and have children with other successful, high IQ people.
    Intelligence is more likely to be passed on, but doesn't mean it is. It is often more nuture than nature that increases its chances of being "passed on".

    High IQ does not equate to wealth. There are plenty of people who earn their wealth via means that does not require a high IQ level.
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    (Original post by Notorious_B.I.G.)
    Isn't the poster you're responding to a university lecturer who has an undergrad degree in biology?
    If that is the case, I find it even more amusing.
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    There are two reasons why students don't get into Oxbridge. Poor work ethic and limited ability.

    It is no surprise that children from poor backgrounds fail to get into Oxbridge. They come from genetically limited stock and grow up in a culture that hates hard work. It is also no surprise that the majority of students from wealthy backgrounds and attending private schools don't get into Oxbridge. They lack the ability. Private schooling can't overcome their limitations.

    We live in a resentful society where successful people receive hate for their success. We need to stop the talk of unfairness and inequality and just accept that those that get into Oxbridge are intelkecriwlky superior to students at other universities. No matter how envious you get, you can not get away from that truism.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    Intelligence is more likely to be passed on, but doesn't mean it is. It is often more nuture than nature that increases its chances of being "passed on".

    High IQ does not equate to wealth. There are plenty of people who earn their wealth via means that does not require a high IQ level.
    The question is it it correlates with wealth though.

    However, it is a bit superficial to suggest that Oxbridge takes in people according to IQ. Academic ability =/= high IQ, again it correlates but it is not equated. There are plenty of people, especially in the past, who got into Oxbridge because they've been given 1:1 academic support from their school masters who were past fellows of All Souls' (hence do well in exams) and been trained to write their PS and perform well in Oxbridge interviews (hence do well in Oxbridge admission assessments). As well as being given the luxury of performing "exceptional" extracurricular activities because of their parent/school's influence. While this is still true, Oxbridge are wise to it and (it is suggested by some) perform "positive discrimination" against old boys.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Intelligence is passed on, with offspring averaging an IQ closer to the population average than the parents' IQ. This means that the offspring of intelligent parents are more likely to have high intelligence. Successful, high IQ people tend to marry and have children with other successful, high IQ people.
    ...with offspring averaging an IQ closer to the population average than the parents' IQ. This means that the offspring of intelligent parents are more likely to have high intelligence ...

    If the IQ is closer to the population average then why would the offspring of intelligent parents have high intelligence?
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    Someone doesn't understand how genetics work, nor how wealth can be gained.
    Is there a correlation between IQ and wealth?

    Is there a correlation between parental and child IQ?

    Is IQ heritable?
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    Did you go to a private school? If so, you have been tutored much more thoroughly and in smaller class sizes than your state school counterpart.
    You would be VERY wrong indeed to assume that the only thing affecting students nowadays is their class size. There are so many variables in play that it is grossly unfair to compensate for one inequality or unfairness but not compensate for another. And not all inequalities qualify as special extenuating circumstances.
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    (Original post by Notorious_B.I.G.)
    The question is it it correlates with wealth though.

    However, it is a bit superficial to suggest that Oxbridge takes in people according to IQ. Academic ability =/= high IQ, again it correlates but it is not equated. There are plenty of people, especially in the past, who got into Oxbridge because they've been given 1:1 academic support from their school masters who were past fellows of All Souls' (hence do well in exams) and been trained to write their PS and perform well in Oxbridge interviews (hence do well in Oxbridge admission assessments). As well as being given the luxury of performing "exceptional" extracurricular activities because of their parent/school's influence. While this is still true, Oxbridge are wise to it and (it is suggested by some) perform "positive discrimination" against old boys.
    Some evidence suggest it correlates with wealth. Some evidence suggests it doesn't.

    There is also a lot of evidence to say the measures of "intelligence" are somewhat flawed and can discriminate certain groups just where the measures have predominately been designed by white, middle class men.

    Oxbridge are trying to improve the situation. You only have to look at their outreach activities and use of contextualised offers to see they are trying. I just think they are not trying hard enough and more needs to be done. Its tricky though - they can't be responsible for solving the social mobility issue alone. They also can't help that they are generally surrounded by areas of higher wealth, and that will in itself be part of the problem.

    Despite earlier posts having a dig at them, I have a lot of respect for both universities for the excellence they offer and create. I have spent far too long with both of them (although Cambridge in particular) to not have. But I honestly believe they don't really want to change their "old boys school" brand. It what brings them hundreds of millions of sponsorship and alumni funds each year, and help to maintain their "excellence" branding and reputation. Unfortunately it is too perpertual.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    Intelligence is more likely to be passed on, but doesn't mean it is. It is often more nuture than nature that increases its chances of being "passed on".

    High IQ does not equate to wealth. There are plenty of people who earn their wealth via means that does not require a high IQ level.
    Of course, but it certainly explains why the offspring of successful people do well.
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    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    Is there a correlation between IQ and wealth?

    Is there a correlation between parental and child IQ?

    Is IQ heritable?
    There is some evidence to suggest there is on the first two points. There's also evidence to suggest it isn't. Most evidence suggests its more the nuture than the nature though that creates that correlation.

    It can be inherited, but it doesn't mean it is. The same way I can have blue eyes when both my parents have brown.
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    I thought it being inaccessible to the point of insanity was kind of the point?
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    If the IQ is closer to the population average then why would the offspring of intelligent parents have high intelligence?
    Because the intelligence of the offspring is on average higher than the general population average. It tends to be lower than that of the parents but is still higher than the population average.

    Less intelligent parents' offspring similarly tends towards the general population average, of course, so their offspring tend to be more intelligent than their parents but less intelligent than the population average.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    It can be inherited, but it doesn't mean it is. The same way I can have blue eyes when both my parents have brown.
    But you still inherited your blue eyes for genetic reasons, it is just that the gene is less dominant.
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    (Original post by Duncan2012)
    What does family income have to do with grammar schools? The reason most people can't go to grammars now is that demand far outstrips supply.
    Because in a lot of areas there aren't grammar schools that are based off your intelligence. Sorry if I confused you, but often when I was referring to grammars I was referring to private grammar schools. If someone comes from a poor family, how can you expect them to pay £9000+ a year, as well as buying uniform, books, equipment etc. Family income has a lot to do with it.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    But you still inherited your blue eyes for genetic reasons, it is just that the gene is less dominant.
    Exactly. The outcome isn't certain, just more likely.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    I would expect that to be even more damning.
    I wouldn't. For it to be more damning, you'd need people living in poorer areas to be more likely to apply to Oxbridge than people in wealthy areas. I would be astonished to find that was actually the case.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    There is some evidence to suggest there is on the first two points. There's also evidence to suggest it isn't. Most evidence suggests its more the nuture than the nature though that creates that correlation.
    All 3 are well established correlations.

    It can be inherited, but it doesn't mean it is. The same way I can have blue eyes when both my parents have brown.
    You are questioning the heritability of IQ, one of the best established facts in all psychology? And you think I don't understand how genetics works?! IQ is a polygenic trait under the influence of hundreds or thousands of genes. That's why it forms a normal distribution unlike eye colour which is influenced by a few genes.

    Something like half of the influence is due to these genes. The other half is due to environment (little though is due to the "shared environment" e.g. how your parents raise you, the school you go to, where you live etc.). See here for a modern classic reading: https://academic.oup.com/ije/article...y-so-different
 
 
 
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