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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    I don't have the number to hand but I expect it's lower for Oxbridge. They have endowments and much higher research income than most universities.
    It really doesn't matter what the figure is to be honest. I'm sure they'd throw a few fundraisers to plug the deficit. The fact is that it would be a very powerful message to Oxbridge that they cannot continue to discriminate against certain applicants.

    I know there will be a lot of resistance to what David Lammy has said, on this board and further afield because it is in the interest of a lot of people to keep the status quo, but we need to keep the conversation about this going as long as possible because it is a national disgrace.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    I don't have the number to hand but I expect it's lower for Oxbridge. They have endowments and much higher research income than most universities.
    Exactly. Universities like Oxbridge would be the least hit with such a policy given their diverse revenue streams.

    Ultimately students generally are not geographically mobile and most universities will recruit heavily from their county or neighbouring ones. Oxbridge is not only guilty of this, pretty much every university is. But the difference is that Oxford is generally an area (or in surrounding areas) of high wealth, and so the diversity issue becomes more apparent.

    There’s an interesting take on the matter here:

    https://highpeakdata.wordpress.com/2...-of-the-north/
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    Why is everyone so fixated on just Oxford and Cambridge?
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    I wonder if Manchester mainly gets its students from the North West?
    It is only for one subject, but this map indicates your suspicions are likely to be correct:

    http://www.cs.manchester.ac.uk/study.../students-map/

    You can zoom in.
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    (Original post by J-SP)
    There’s an interesting take on the matter here:

    https://highpeakdata.wordpress.com/2...-of-the-north/
    That's what Durham aspires to be...
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    It is only for one subject, but this map indicates your suspicions are likely to be correct:

    http://www.cs.manchester.ac.uk/study.../students-map/

    You can zoom in.
    There is a page somewhere that shows the geographical coverage for each university... I'll try to dig it out. As you'd expect most are primarily recruiting according to proximity, including Oxbridge.
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    (Original post by black1blade)
    Why is everyone so fixated on just Oxford and Cambridge?
    They are seen as a passport to the elite, a glittering career, top jobs in jealously guarded professions, etc. In reality, this is less true than it used to be, but the perception is still strong and it still has a large slice of truth to it.
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    The geography/proximity argument is probably as much down the wealth of the surrounding areas rather than convenience of travelling to Oxford/Cambridge. It's a bit of a red herring. Kids in Teeside don't apply because their educations are not as well funded as kids in Herts, Bucks, etc. It's no excuse despite what some people may try to say.
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    (Original post by Carbon Dioxide)
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41664459
    ...OK, so I've hardly come up with Fermat's Last Theorem there, but according to FOI data acquired by David Lammy (a Labour MP), Oxford and Cambridge are understood to be mostly sending offers to the more well-off regions of England (mostly southern, some northern - about half of ALL offers go to those in London and the south-east). Around 80% of applicants are also understood to be in the top two social classes.

    Point of consideration: Is Oxbridge really turning more inaccessible, is this a case of same-old-same-old, or is this just a quirk in the system?
    Oxbridge's mentality is that they'll refuse to lower requirements for people in poorer backgrounds; instead they state that the schooling, council and support to those students should be improved in order for them to complete. Given the above reasons why poorer students get lower grades, it's no suprise rich students with better education, support, Oxbridge coaching at some schools etc are more represented.

    It isn't only Oxbridge that suffers from this, Imperial, Durham, UCL etc other elite universities are guilty, but their numbers are only slightly better, they too don't lower requirements IIRC.

    There's also Medicine. Only half the schools in the U.K. have ever sent off at least one med applicant (as in just submitting an app, not including an offer). The reasons for this are identical, as for Oxbridge.

    Essentially, rich families continue to have children that dominate society because of their education and privilege.
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    (Original post by AnaBaptist)
    The geography/proximity argument is probably as much down the wealth of the surrounding areas rather than convenience of travelling to Oxford/Cambridge. It's a bit of a red herring. Kids in Teeside don't apply because their educations are not as well funded as kids in Herts, Bucks, etc. It's no excuse despite what some people may try to say.
    You either believe that for solid reasons and will come up with some evidence to back it up, or you'll just be throwing in an unsupported assertion based on nothing more than supposition in the hope that someone will accept what you say.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    You either believe that for solid reasons and will come up with some evidence to back it up, or you'll just be throwing in an unsupported assertion based on nothing more than supposition in the hope that someone will accept what you say.
    It's called having an opinion Good Bloke. To be more precise, having an opinion in the course of a discussion. The last time I checked people were allowed to hold these things I would refer to as opinions, and you refer to as unsupported assertions. Oh, and by the way, nobody has to agree with my opinion, sorry, unsupported assertion...
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    So the education system in Britain basically consists of 13 years of systematically unequal primary and secondary education, after which we demand the universities undo all of that in just a few years. Sure, Oxbridge need to somehow do more, but we should deal with the problem at its source.
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    (Original post by Tian1Sky)
    So the education system in Britain basically consists of 13 years of systematically unequal primary and secondary education, after which we demand the universities undo all of that in just a few years. Sure, Oxbridge need to somehow do more, but we should deal with the problem at its source.
    I agree. This is why I initially said that some kids are playing against a rigged deck. The problem is people will argue until the cows come home that kids in Merseyside, Teeside, Wales etc, only want to go to their nearest university or that kids in the Home Counties are genetically brighter than Scouse kids, Geordie kids, Welsh kids etc.
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    I used to think that anyone with the talent, passion for their chosen subject and work ethic could get in. I no longer think so.

    David Lammy was hitting the headlines yesterday about the number of black entrants, but what he really should have been complaining about is the lack of transparency in admissions decisions.
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    The report said many parents were professional or managerial, but it would be equally useful to see where grandparents came from. I came from the Midlands in the 80s, both parents worked in factories. (remember when there were still factories?) we still had an outside toilet when I was growing up. Doing well in my subject, a family friend suggested I tried for Oxford, but my teachers said - we know nothing about how to help you - so I did it on my own - I somehow acquired past entrance papers from the shop on High Street, and worked through them on my own. My teachers took me to the staffroom book shelf and said, take any book you want. I had no interview preparation, because I assumed it would just be a chat. I got in! It can be done. (That said, my own children would now be classed as privileged because I worked my way up - what then, I am wondering, is the point of trying to aspire? )
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    I used to think that anyone with the talent, passion for their chosen subject and work ethic could get in. I no longer think so.

    David Lammy was hitting the deadlines yesterday about the number of black entrants, but what he really should have been complaining about is the lack of transparency in admissions decisions.
    There are literally admissions tutors on this website that answer 100s of questions. If you are rejected then they'll tell you why they didn't take you. I don't see how it could be much more transparent.
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    I used to think that anyone with the talent, passion for their chosen subject and work ethic could get in. I no longer think so.

    David Lammy was hitting the deadlines yesterday about the number of black entrants, but what he really should have been complaining about is the lack of transparency in admissions decisions.
    Where does it say that those people won't be successful?
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    I think they just need to encourage more people from those low income backgrounds to apply. If they are good enough they will get in
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    I think the other thing now is that the admissions system has been made doubly difficult since the 80s. Then, there was an entrance test, for my subject which I mugged up on, and a general paper, in which I remember mentioning something in the news I had heard that morning. But the difference was the entrance conditions were only TWO Es at A Level! So if you were good at your own subject, it didn't matter about the others. Then they introduced the Hertford Scheme, where you didn't do an entrance test, but just needed good grades at A Level. But now, you have to be brilliant in an entrance test AND get the top grades at A Level. Much like Jeremy Corbyn I did really poorly in my other two subjects - now I would have missed my grades and been rejected at the last moment. No wonder people are discouraged from applying nowadays.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Where does it say that those people won't be successful?
    If you live in certain areas of the UK, recent history tells those kids they won't be successful.

    Go and speak to the teacher from Middlesborough quoted in the David Lammy study. She describes a student who was outstandingly gifted at maths. The school worked really hard with him to make an application. He didn't get in and there was little or no feedback telling him why he hadn't been successful. Anybody living in these areas know kids who are remarkable and who would be more than deserving of an Oxbridge place, and yet they don't get in.

    I don't know why you don't accept this?
 
 
 
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