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Which universities have traditional medical courses except oxbridge? Watch

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    Imperial and UCL are integrated but from what I know all the clinical attachments and PBL is very little in the first 2 years making it pretty much traditional.

    But anyway why are you asking this now when UCAS deadline had gone?
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    (Original post by angelike1)
    Imperial and UCL are integrated but from what I know all the clinical attachments and PBL is very little in the first 2 years making it pretty much traditional.

    But anyway why are you asking this now when UCAS deadline had gone?
    Im in year 12 -_-
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    (Original post by Anonymous1502)
    Yes but overall oxbridge is a traditional course. I really don't like the pbl course.Im looking for medical schools that are mostly traditional and have little pbl.
    You cannot both decree that PBL is inferior for your purposes then not deign to consider a so-called "traditional" course because you only complete the first three years in one location then complete the clinical phase elsewhere, or because it's in NI....if you so choose to restrict yourself you must accept the consequences of that self imposed restriction, which is that you will have to make compromises on what you want out of this.

    No matter where you study, you will be moving around doing clinical placements throughout the clinical years, and you may well end up nowhere near your "parent" university for parts of those periods. Also Oxford isn't explicitly a guarantee you can complete your clinical years there, as you need to attain a minimum standard to continue, else you have the London universities as an option (or if you did extremely poorly, presumably would have to leave with a BA only and be ineligible to continue medical training).

    Otherwise Glasgow and SGUL are mostly lecture based for the first two years apparently, but inevitably you will be required to engage with your education and solve problems and look at specific cases. I'm not sure where this dogged avoidance is coming from, but it's not going to be conducive to you becoming a good physician or surgeon to adamantly avoid things you "don't like" or living/studying/working far from your current location.

    From the sounds of it I would suggest you consider a bioscience course and pursuing research, since you seem to have little interest in actually engaging with medicine as a practical vocation, which it necessarily is. Pursuing biomedical research would feed into your presumed interest in human health and disease and avoid having to directly engage with patients and clinical scenarios.
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    (Original post by artful_lounger)
    You cannot both decree that PBL is inferior for your purposes then not deign to consider a so-called "traditional" course because you only complete the first three years in one location then complete the clinical phase elsewhere, or because it's in NI....if you so choose to restrict yourself you must accept the consequences of that self imposed restriction, which is that you will have to make compromises on what you want out of this.

    No matter where you study, you will be moving around doing clinical placements throughout the clinical years, and you may well end up nowhere near your "parent" university for parts of those periods. Also Oxford isn't explicitly a guarantee you can complete your clinical years there, as you need to attain a minimum standard to continue, else you have the London universities as an option (or if you did extremely poorly, presumably would have to leave with a BA only and be ineligible to continue medical training).

    Otherwise Glasgow and SGUL are mostly lecture based for the first two years apparently, but inevitably you will be required to engage with your education and solve problems and look at specific cases. I'm not sure where this dogged avoidance is coming from, but it's not going to be conducive to you becoming a good physician or surgeon to adamantly avoid things you "don't like" or living/studying/working far from your current location.

    From the sounds of it I would suggest you consider a bioscience course and pursuing research, since you seem to have little interest in actually engaging with medicine as a practical vocation, which it necessarily is. Pursuing biomedical research would feed into your presumed interest in human health and disease and avoid having to directly engage with patients and clinical scenarios.
    I think you're misinterpreting what Im saying -_-

    And I'm not applying for oxford but cambirdge, for that reason you said above.PBL is not inferior, can you tell me where I said that!Because I didnt -_-.
    It's just not for me I want a strong solid science background and little patient contact in the first couple years basically the non clinical years.And that is preference.A pbl course will not give me the strong science base that I want and I do not enjoy learning using case studies and the pbl way or this working in a group and figuring stuff out way the way pbl is run.Some people like it and I dont and I don;t understand what's your issue.I have no problem with patient contact, stop making assumptions and I don't want a biomed degree!I feel having patient contact before a good scientific understanding wouldn't benefit me and I wouldn't learn as much from the experience if I don't have good science understanding.Im under the assumption that maybe you don't quite understand what a traditional course is, so i suggest you read this: https://www.themedicportal.com/appli...ional-courses/

    Me wanting to do a traditional course is to do with my learning preference and nothing else, so please stop making assumptions about em that are completely wrong -_- I love patient contact and Im interested in some specialities that have lots of patient contact but also those that are less (surgery).I think to eb a good doctor you also need to be a good scientist, but that's my opinion and some people think otherwise.Im interested in using my scientific knowledge to help patients and don't see myself working in biomed and Im not interested in it, Im interested in medicine for a reason and that's why I want to pursue it,if I was just interested in biology and diseases do you really think I would apply for medicine?Im interested in the science aspect in medicine but there is so many other things that interest me in pursuing it that are not to do with science.
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    Ok I was going to discuss aspects of scientific preparation and the relation to practicing as a physician or surgeon but....

    (Original post by Anonymous1502)
    specialities that have lots of patient contact but also those that are less (surgery)
    What are you talking about? Surgical specialties have some of the of the highest patient contact rates. You are required to be engaging with the patients and their families pre-op, then providing post-op care and assessment. Surgeries may well require repeated operations to fully correct the issue,a nd so even the concept of not developing long term relationships with patients isn't wholly accurate, although they do have less long term relationship building on the whole. But certainly...they are not a "low patient contact" specialty.

    I think your view of the profession is inaccurate, which while not inherently a problem if you actually take steps to educate yourself on it, is clearly the source of your entirely illogical positions on medical education. Also to go back to my initial point, without elaborating too much so you can take the opportunity to learn more about what the profession actually entails - PBL provides not only a suitable scientific and professional background for being a good pracitcing physician or surgeon, but it has been taken up as one of the primary methods of education, including as for example Harvard Medical School (where "traditional" format medical education is only available for MD/PhD students in the joint Harvard-MIT HST section, due to the advanced quantitative methods used), because it has been demonstrated to provide superior clinical abilities for physicians and surgeons.

    Oxford and Cambridge are very much the exceptions to the rule due in large part to their reluctance to let go of "historical" methods - something which plagues the universities in many ways. However they still will implement similar methods in tutorials/supervisions as mentioned because they realise and they do include some clinical experiences in the first few years in the form of GP visits etc, because they realise not doing so is detrimental to the quality of their graduating students. Even at Cambridge you will be going on GP visits (in first year), you will be introduced to cases from Addenbrookes (in second year), you will experience different community healthcare based settings (in second and third years) and in third year of the "preclinical" phase you will actually be shadowing a pregnant woman with her family at her home and engaging with her as a human being, not as a batch of cells in a petri dish. You will also be expected to consider and respond to novel situations and cases through your supervision work as appropriate. Also none of this is "hidden knowledge" - it's very easy to find all this within about two clicks on the prospective students page...

    If you lack the ability to appreciate decades of medical education research has determined that such integrated methods provide at least equivalent if not better scientific and practical clinical knowledge to become a physician or surgeon then perhaps medicine is not a good option. You need to be able to step back and appreciate that someone else may have more knowledge and better ability to advise on specific circumstances - this is not about me or this thread, but in terms of medicine generally. You cannot be a physician or surgeon as an island and refuse to interact with or take the advice of your colleagues. This same principle applies here. You are a year 12 student. You do not know what will provide the best medical education for you. If you are more inclined to scientific and academic possibilities, then focus on selecting courses to apply to which require or offer the ability to intercalate in a scientific discipline allied to medicine as well as more clinical areas.

    And to just shoot down what I imagine will be your rebuttals:

    (Original post by Anonymous1502)
    I feel having patient contact before a good scientific understanding wouldn't benefit me
    it doesn't matter what you feel or think, you're a 6th form student, not a medical educator or researcher or even practicing medical professional. It's not possible for you to know what will and won't benefit you.

    (Original post by Anonymous1502)
    A pbl course will not give me the strong science base
    Baseless. The GMC accredits all medical degrees, traditional or otherwise, to provide a very high level of scientific understanding of medicine as require to become a practicing physician or surgeon. If your aim is to not become a practicing physician or surgeon, don't apply to medicine. A PBL course is just as suitable for a budding academic clinician as a traditional and vice versa for those not wanting to pursue that route.

    (Original post by Anonymous1502)
    I feel having patient contact before a good scientific understanding wouldn't benefit me and I wouldn't learn as much from the experience if I don't have good science understanding.
    As above. This has been researched for decades, other people know better than you what will and won't benefit you. Clinical exposure activities are extremely expensive and potentially difficult for medical schools to arrange. They will not waste money arranging such activities if they did not know before that it will benefit their students.

    (Original post by Anonymous1502)
    good doctor you also need to be a good scientist, but that's my opinion and some people think otherwise
    As a 6th form student your "opinion" on medical education has literally no grounding in reality other than what others may suggest to you. Empirical research however does agree with that, and that is why the GMC accredits all degrees to ensure that a sound backing in the molecular and scientific basis of medicine is provided by every accredited UK medical degree. Thus it's irrelevant how that information as taught because it will be taught.

    As above, if you are unable or unwilling to accept that the curricular content of every medical degree is essentially identical outside of SSCs and similar, then I would suggest considering another course. While preferring not to wholly focus on PBL is perfectly reasonable you need to accept you are going to need to engage in group working environments you are going to need to assess case studies during the course of your medical education and beyond and you are going to be in environments where you will have to think on your feet and and there won't be a cookie cutter solution and sometimes you may get it wrong. That is part and parcel of the profession.

    I would end by clarifying that the above is being pointed out for your benefit - the medical education system has been structured in a way to benefit you and make sure you can be the best physician or surgeon you can be. This is why virtually all such courses take variations of the "integrated" format - even so called traditional courses aren't purely split anymore. What is necessary is for you to appreciate the work done by others and accept their wisdom, and realise that at the end of the day either system will work to ensure you become a physician or surgeon - provided they accept you. I've yet to see a student indicate that a clinical encounter or case was a negative aspect of their course, and most seem to indicate it's the highlight of the course - both in traditional and other formats. If anything more criticism seems to be levied at such "traditional" courses not having more (and earlier) case and problem based learning and clinical engagement.

    You have your list. Oxbridge, UCL, Imperial, QUB, Glasgow, Edinburgh and St Andrews all have what is the modern form of "traditional" training - i.e. that you will learn predominantly in lectures and be supported by CBL and PBL, with clinical activities, to support this. There is not a single medical course I know of that will not have you touch a case or meet a patient before letting you out on the wards, as I said before.
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    (Original post by Anonymous1502)
    I think you're misinterpreting what Im saying -_-

    And I'm not applying for oxford but cambirdge, for that reason you said above.PBL is not inferior, can you tell me where I said that!Because I didnt -_-.
    It's just not for me I want a strong solid science background and little patient contact in the first couple years basically the non clinical years.And that is preference.A pbl course will not give me the strong science base that I want and I do not enjoy learning using case studies and the pbl way or this working in a group and figuring stuff out way the way pbl is run.Some people like it and I dont and I don;t understand what's your issue.I have no problem with patient contact, stop making assumptions and I don't want a biomed degree!I feel having patient contact before a good scientific understanding wouldn't benefit me and I wouldn't learn as much from the experience if I don't have good science understanding.Im under the assumption that maybe you don't quite understand what a traditional course is, so i suggest you read this: https://www.themedicportal.com/appli...ional-courses/

    Me wanting to do a traditional course is to do with my learning preference and nothing else, so please stop making assumptions about em that are completely wrong -_- I love patient contact and Im interested in some specialities that have lots of patient contact but also those that are less (surgery).I think to eb a good doctor you also need to be a good scientist, but that's my opinion and some people think otherwise.Im interested in using my scientific knowledge to help patients and don't see myself working in biomed and Im not interested in it, Im interested in medicine for a reason and that's why I want to pursue it,if I was just interested in biology and diseases do you really think I would apply for medicine?Im interested in the science aspect in medicine but there is so many other things that interest me in pursuing it that are not to do with science.
    what a load of nonsense
    source: im an imperial medic
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    (Original post by artful_lounger)
    Ok I was going to discuss aspects of scientific preparation and the relation to practicing as a physician or surgeon but....



    What are you talking about? Surgical specialties have some of the of the highest patient contact rates. You are required to be engaging with the patients and their families pre-op, then providing post-op care and assessment. Surgeries may well require repeated operations to fully correct the issue,a nd so even the concept of not developing long term relationships with patients isn't wholly accurate, although they do have less long term relationship building on the whole. But certainly...they are not a "low patient contact" specialty.

    I think your view of the profession is inaccurate, which while not inherently a problem if you actually take steps to educate yourself on it, is clearly the source of your entirely illogical positions on medical education. Also to go back to my initial point, without elaborating too much so you can take the opportunity to learn more about what the profession actually entails - PBL provides not only a suitable scientific and professional background for being a good pracitcing physician or surgeon, but it has been taken up as one of the primary methods of education, including as for example Harvard Medical School (where "traditional" format medical education is only available for MD/PhD students in the joint Harvard-MIT HST section, due to the advanced quantitative methods used), because it has been demonstrated to provide superior clinical abilities for physicians and surgeons.

    Oxford and Cambridge are very much the exceptions to the rule due in large part to their reluctance to let go of "historical" methods - something which plagues the universities in many ways. However they still will implement similar methods in tutorials/supervisions as mentioned because they realise and they do include some clinical experiences in the first few years in the form of GP visits etc, because they realise not doing so is detrimental to the quality of their graduating students. Even at Cambridge you will be going on GP visits (in first year), you will be introduced to cases from Addenbrookes (in second year), you will experience different community healthcare based settings (in second and third years) and in third year of the "preclinical" phase you will actually be shadowing a pregnant woman with her family at her home and engaging with her as a human being, not as a batch of cells in a petri dish. You will also be expected to consider and respond to novel situations and cases through your supervision work as appropriate. Also none of this is "hidden knowledge" - it's very easy to find all this within about two clicks on the prospective students page...

    If you lack the ability to appreciate decades of medical education research has determined that such integrated methods provide at least equivalent if not better scientific and practical clinical knowledge to become a physician or surgeon then perhaps medicine is not a good option. You need to be able to step back and appreciate that someone else may have more knowledge and better ability to advise on specific circumstances - this is not about me or this thread, but in terms of medicine generally. You cannot be a physician or surgeon as an island and refuse to interact with or take the advice of your colleagues. This same principle applies here. You are a year 12 student. You do not know what will provide the best medical education for you. If you are more inclined to scientific and academic possibilities, then focus on selecting courses to apply to which require or offer the ability to intercalate in a scientific discipline allied to medicine as well as more clinical areas.

    And to just shoot down what I imagine will be your rebuttals:


    it doesn't matter what you feel or think, you're a 6th form student, not a medical educator or researcher or even practicing medical professional. It's not possible for you to know what will and won't benefit you.


    Baseless. The GMC accredits all medical degrees, traditional or otherwise, to provide a very high level of scientific understanding of medicine as require to become a practicing physician or surgeon. If your aim is to not become a practicing physician or surgeon, don't apply to medicine. A PBL course is just as suitable for a budding academic clinician as a traditional and vice versa for those not wanting to pursue that route.


    As above. This has been researched for decades, other people know better than you what will and won't benefit you. Clinical exposure activities are extremely expensive and potentially difficult for medical schools to arrange. They will not waste money arranging such activities if they did not know before that it will benefit their students.

    As a 6th form student your "opinion" on medical education has literally no grounding in reality other than what others may suggest to you. Empirical research however does agree with that, and that is why the GMC accredits all degrees to ensure that a sound backing in the molecular and scientific basis of medicine is provided by every accredited UK medical degree. Thus it's irrelevant how that information as taught because it will be taught.

    As above, if you are unable or unwilling to accept that the curricular content of every medical degree is essentially identical outside of SSCs and similar, then I would suggest considering another course. While preferring not to wholly focus on PBL is perfectly reasonable you need to accept you are going to need to engage in group working environments you are going to need to assess case studies during the course of your medical education and beyond and you are going to be in environments where you will have to think on your feet and and there won't be a cookie cutter solution and sometimes you may get it wrong. That is part and parcel of the profession.

    I would end by clarifying that the above is being pointed out for your benefit - the medical education system has been structured in a way to benefit you and make sure you can be the best physician or surgeon you can be. This is why virtually all such courses take variations of the "integrated" format - even so called traditional courses aren't purely split anymore. What is necessary is for you to appreciate the work done by others and accept their wisdom, and realise that at the end of the day either system will work to ensure you become a physician or surgeon - provided they accept you. I've yet to see a student indicate that a clinical encounter or case was a negative aspect of their course, and most seem to indicate it's the highlight of the course - both in traditional and other formats. If anything more criticism seems to be levied at such "traditional" courses not having more (and earlier) case and problem based learning and clinical engagement.

    You have your list. Oxbridge, UCL, Imperial, QUB, Glasgow, Edinburgh and St Andrews all have what is the modern form of "traditional" training - i.e. that you will learn predominantly in lectures and be supported by CBL and PBL, with clinical activities, to support this. There is not a single medical course I know of that will not have you touch a case or meet a patient before letting you out on the wards, as I said before.
    From what I'm currently reading life in the frontal lobe about a neurosurgeon and from doctors I spoke to during work experience, they have said surgery is not much patient contact because do you talk to a patient if they are unconscious no, this is what I meant when I was talking about patient contact.Sure there is patient contact after op and before op but if you are in the OR then you won't be doing much patient contact.When I talk about patient contact Im referring to communicating with patients.Which I told you before I don't mind at all.

    I do not care at all what harvard medical school is doing or any american university is doing as Im not interested in studying in america or anythign like that so stop referring to these cases as they have nothing to do with me.Also please link your source for it giving superior clinical schools.

    I already know about the cambridge course and about the gp thing and shadowing a pregnant one,Im in no way ignorant about the cambirdge course,I have gone to some great lengths to educate myself myself on the course as much as I can even though I don't knwo everything I knwo of everything you mentioned above,please don't think I'm an ignorant fool.Im going to apply to cambridge not because Im elitist or because it's cambridge, but because I like the course structure, which I find the most interesting and is my way of learning.

    Please link your resource that say that an integrated course is better, instead of stating it.Why are you saying I wouldn't take advice from a colleague, beign a doctor means putting your pride to the side and seeking someone with superior knowledge e.g. the registrar and consultant for advice when Im unsure what the best course of action is.I have no shame in asking someone with more knowledge for help at all.I have no idea where you have inferred this idea from that I wouldn't? I don not think you know me or understand my learning methods so you cannot make such assumptions.Some people are kinaesthetic learners some are visual e.g. and some learn through solving problems and learning through cases like in pbl and some like going to supervisions and lectures and learning that way.Then why do you think I am asking for which universities offer traditional courses, so I could apply to those that are suited for me.If Im spending lots of money and 5-6 years of my life I need to be in a medical school suited to my learning style and preference.It's like if someone who does not benefit from lectures and supervisions and just prefers learning from patient contact wouldn't want to apply for oxbridge which is the case for many people and prefer an integrated course or pbl, and there is nothing wrong with that and Im just the opposite and I don't understand why you seem to have an issue with that?

    I know myself enough to know that I enjoy learning through lectures and small group work (supervisions) and I have spoken to doctors and esearched about hwo different medical courses work.No one can look at someone and say e.g. they're definitely visual learners or say I use that studying method and I get the grades if you sue it you will get the grades because everyone is different and the fact you can't see that is something I don't understand!Like the exmaple I mentioned above why someone would not apply for oxbridge because they're not suited for the learning style, you wouldn't tell them to their face 'oh you don't knwo what's best you're not a medical educator you should do a traditional course, which is something you said but said pbl/integrated, and that's wrong.

    Why would you suggest being a practicing physician/doctor is not something I want when I specifically mentioned that's what I want to do!This is not a decision I have taken lightly and one I thought about for over 2 years and got the relevant experience and research to make sure it's for me and I even looked at other options and I felt they weren't for me and that medicine was the only thing I really wanted to do.Im not one of those people who just say I want to become a doctor and are scared of blood and don't know what the realities are like e.g. being overworked, stress,chaos etc.I knwo medicine is not a walk in the park.I have taken many steps to educate myself about the career through reading lots of accounts of being a doctor in books by doctors and their experiences.I know that all medical degrees in the UK are seen as equal and all that stuff and it doesn't matter which uni you go to you will still be as good as a doctor as someone from a different uni, but for me it's the learning style and environment and course structure.But not all universities have such a high emphasises on science as others I think, all give lots of science knowledge but some focus more on it then others and also some universities offer the opportunity to do research through out your medical degree which i think is a great opportunity to learn and discover more about aspects of medicine that interest, it does not mean I intend to do research after medicine.I have nothing against pbl, it's just a personal preference like I mentioned above, they make as good clinicians as people from traditional courses but it's all down to preference and nothing else.

    Also the thing about good doctors being, good scientists is what Murray Edwards college said themselves on tsr, when looking for medical applicants, so it must mean that's what they think a good suitable doctor will be:source below 3rd post.As mentioned in the source what the medical course offers is what I want from a medical course, there is nothing wrong with other ones but this is personal.

    https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=4982606

    This is an extract from the King's college cambridge website:

    In the first two years (called Parts IA and IB), students cover all aspects of basic science related to medicine. This provides students with a much stronger scientific training than is found in most other medical courses. If you are looking for immediate patient contact in a hospital setting, then the Cambridge course is not for you.

    The things highlighted in bold are what I like about the course and what I keep telling you over and over again yet you ignore what Im telling you.

    I also get the impression that you are muddling up the fact that an integrated course is differently from a purely pbl course, so here are some links below to clarify the differences:

    https://www.themedicportal.com/appli...l/pbl-courses/

    https://www.themedicportal.com/appli...ol/integrated/

    In the info about integrated it states this:

    An integrated course may involve a fair amount of PBL, or none at all

    So integrated courses vary,remember not all integrated courses have pbl, which I think is the main point of confusion, even though some integrated courses have some pbl some have none which I think is the confusion.
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    (Original post by epistasis)
    what a load of nonsense
    source: im an imperial medic
    Imperial is integrated not traditional.
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    (Original post by Anonymous1502)
    I know, it's just I can't see myself living in Northern Ireland, Im sure some people love it but it's not for me.It's also too far away for me.
    Where do you live?

    As you might have heard on the news, we have aircraft in Belfast.

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    (Original post by artful_lounger)
    Ok I was going to discuss aspects of scientific preparation and the relation to practicing as a physician or surgeon but....



    What are you talking about? Surgical specialties have some of the of the highest patient contact rates. You are required to be engaging with the patients and their families pre-op, then providing post-op care and assessment. Surgeries may well require repeated operations to fully correct the issue,a nd so even the concept of not developing long term relationships with patients isn't wholly accurate, although they do have less long term relationship building on the whole. But certainly...they are not a "low patient contact" specialty.

    I think your view of the profession is inaccurate, which while not inherently a problem if you actually take steps to educate yourself on it, is clearly the source of your entirely illogical positions on medical education. Also to go back to my initial point, without elaborating too much so you can take the opportunity to learn more about what the profession actually entails - PBL provides not only a suitable scientific and professional background for being a good pracitcing physician or surgeon, but it has been taken up as one of the primary methods of education, including as for example Harvard Medical School (where "traditional" format medical education is only available for MD/PhD students in the joint Harvard-MIT HST section, due to the advanced quantitative methods used), because it has been demonstrated to provide superior clinical abilities for physicians and surgeons.

    Oxford and Cambridge are very much the exceptions to the rule due in large part to their reluctance to let go of "historical" methods - something which plagues the universities in many ways. However they still will implement similar methods in tutorials/supervisions as mentioned because they realise and they do include some clinical experiences in the first few years in the form of GP visits etc, because they realise not doing so is detrimental to the quality of their graduating students. Even at Cambridge you will be going on GP visits (in first year), you will be introduced to cases from Addenbrookes (in second year), you will experience different community healthcare based settings (in second and third years) and in third year of the "preclinical" phase you will actually be shadowing a pregnant woman with her family at her home and engaging with her as a human being, not as a batch of cells in a petri dish. You will also be expected to consider and respond to novel situations and cases through your supervision work as appropriate. Also none of this is "hidden knowledge" - it's very easy to find all this within about two clicks on the prospective students page...

    If you lack the ability to appreciate decades of medical education research has determined that such integrated methods provide at least equivalent if not better scientific and practical clinical knowledge to become a physician or surgeon then perhaps medicine is not a good option. You need to be able to step back and appreciate that someone else may have more knowledge and better ability to advise on specific circumstances - this is not about me or this thread, but in terms of medicine generally. You cannot be a physician or surgeon as an island and refuse to interact with or take the advice of your colleagues. This same principle applies here. You are a year 12 student. You do not know what will provide the best medical education for you. If you are more inclined to scientific and academic possibilities, then focus on selecting courses to apply to which require or offer the ability to intercalate in a scientific discipline allied to medicine as well as more clinical areas.

    And to just shoot down what I imagine will be your rebuttals:


    it doesn't matter what you feel or think, you're a 6th form student, not a medical educator or researcher or even practicing medical professional. It's not possible for you to know what will and won't benefit you.


    Baseless. The GMC accredits all medical degrees, traditional or otherwise, to provide a very high level of scientific understanding of medicine as require to become a practicing physician or surgeon. If your aim is to not become a practicing physician or surgeon, don't apply to medicine. A PBL course is just as suitable for a budding academic clinician as a traditional and vice versa for those not wanting to pursue that route.


    As above. This has been researched for decades, other people know better than you what will and won't benefit you. Clinical exposure activities are extremely expensive and potentially difficult for medical schools to arrange. They will not waste money arranging such activities if they did not know before that it will benefit their students.


    As a 6th form student your "opinion" on medical education has literally no grounding in reality other than what others may suggest to you. Empirical research however does agree with that, and that is why the GMC accredits all degrees to ensure that a sound backing in the molecular and scientific basis of medicine is provided by every accredited UK medical degree. Thus it's irrelevant how that information as taught because it will be taught.

    As above, if you are unable or unwilling to accept that the curricular content of every medical degree is essentially identical outside of SSCs and similar, then I would suggest considering another course. While preferring not to wholly focus on PBL is perfectly reasonable you need to accept you are going to need to engage in group working environments you are going to need to assess case studies during the course of your medical education and beyond and you are going to be in environments where you will have to think on your feet and and there won't be a cookie cutter solution and sometimes you may get it wrong. That is part and parcel of the profession.

    I would end by clarifying that the above is being pointed out for your benefit - the medical education system has been structured in a way to benefit you and make sure you can be the best physician or surgeon you can be. This is why virtually all such courses take variations of the "integrated" format - even so called traditional courses aren't purely split anymore. What is necessary is for you to appreciate the work done by others and accept their wisdom, and realise that at the end of the day either system will work to ensure you become a physician or surgeon - provided they accept you. I've yet to see a student indicate that a clinical encounter or case was a negative aspect of their course, and most seem to indicate it's the highlight of the course - both in traditional and other formats. If anything more criticism seems to be levied at such "traditional" courses not having more (and earlier) case and problem based learning and clinical engagement.

    You have your list. Oxbridge, UCL, Imperial, QUB, Glasgow, Edinburgh and St Andrews all have what is the modern form of "traditional" training - i.e. that you will learn predominantly in lectures and be supported by CBL and PBL, with clinical activities, to support this. There is not a single medical course I know of that will not have you touch a case or meet a patient before letting you out on the wards, as I said before.
    Also I dont understand what your problem is with traditional courses.It's almost like you're trying to say pbl is superior to traditional courses!
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Where do you live?

    As you might have heard on the news, we have aircraft in Belfast.

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    Yes I know that but if you want to go home most weekend it's too expensive to buy an airplane ticket every time?And I would need to take the airplane to get back home from Belfast.
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    a) do your own research, the onus of validating is on the questioner. It's not hard to use google scholar.

    b) just because the Cambridge course provides a higher than usual scientific background doesn't suggest the others courses provide a weak scientific background, and if that's the level of your reasoning ability please for the good of your would be future patients, consider another profession.

    c) surgeons spend less time operating and more time interacting with patients, or, if you're unlucky, in A&E these days, in general, and due to the changing nature of medicine there is going to be increasingly less major operative work and more outpatient operations and regardless you will still need to spend a good deal of time talking to your patient before and after the operation. If you can't or won't do that, you shouldn't be a surgeon, or a physician.

    d) humans are (largely) the same across the world, and medical education in the US is comparable to the UK. In fact, many in the UK feel the US has superior medical education and post-qualification training...

    e) literally the first lecture of the Cambridge physiology course uses a case study to illustrate some key concepts about the study of physiology. The rest of the course uses the same method of introducing a specific case then discussing the underlying physiology and pathology, then continuing to increasing generality. That's how education beyond the spoon feeding at school works, and so as I said about a billion times, you will be learning using case studies, and in forms of "problem based learning" in some way shape or form.

    and

    f) I assure you going home on the weekend is something that's going to be feasible more than once or twice a year at any other university, for any course - especially Cambridge based on anecdotes about the workload. Of course at Cambridge you get the benefit of longer holiday periods, although the downside of being expected to do more work across them...
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    (Original post by Anonymous1502)
    Yes I know that but if you want to go home most weekend it's too expensive to buy an airplane ticket every time?And I would need to take the airplane to get back home from Belfast.
    You won't be going home most weekends if you are doing medicine, and certainly not from Cambridge. You are expected to "keep term" at Cambridge and frequent home visits aren't usually allowed.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    You won't be going home most weekends if you are doing medicine, and certainly not from Cambridge. You are expected to "keep term" at Cambridge and frequent home visits aren't usually allowed.
    Well not most weekend, I was exaggerating when I said most weekends; on another note going home would just be much more expensive minimum £70 for a plane ticket according to google one way then paying money to go back more money so over £100 spending on transport, and during christmas tickets will probably be more expensive.As a train and coach would be very long and probably equally expensive.
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    (Original post by Anonymous1502)
    Well not most weekend, I was exaggerating when I said most weekends; on another note going home would just be much more expensive minimum £70 for a plane ticket according to google one way then paying money to go back more money so over £100 spending on transport, and during christmas tickets will probably be more expensive.As a train and coach would be very long and probably equally expensive.
    Living costs at QUB are pretty low, certainly compared to Edinburgh, UCL, Imperial, etc.
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    (Original post by artful_lounger)
    a) do your own research, the onus of validating is on the questioner. It's not hard to use google scholar.

    b) just because the Cambridge course provides a higher than usual scientific background doesn't suggest the others courses provide a weak scientific background, and if that's the level of your reasoning ability please for the good of your would be future patients, consider another profession.

    c) surgeons spend less time operating and more time interacting with patients, or, if you're unlucky, in A&E these days, in general, and due to the changing nature of medicine there is going to be increasingly less major operative work and more outpatient operations and regardless you will still need to spend a good deal of time talking to your patient before and after the operation. If you can't or won't do that, you shouldn't be a surgeon, or a physician.

    d) humans are (largely) the same across the world, and medical education in the US is comparable to the UK. In fact, many in the UK feel the US has superior medical education and post-qualification training...

    e) literally the first lecture of the Cambridge physiology course uses a case study to illustrate some key concepts about the study of physiology. The rest of the course uses the same method of introducing a specific case then discussing the underlying physiology and pathology, then continuing to increasing generality. That's how education beyond the spoon feeding at school works, and so as I said about a billion times, you will be learning using case studies, and in forms of "problem based learning" in some way shape or form.

    and

    f) I assure you going home on the weekend is something that's going to be feasible more than once or twice a year at any other university, for any course - especially Cambridge based on anecdotes about the workload. Of course at Cambridge you get the benefit of longer holiday periods, although the downside of being expected to do more work across them...
    a) I did do a lot of my own research.

    b) I know other universities give a good scientific understanding but a university that has a bigger emphasises on it appeals to me and I just don't want the minimum knowledge of science, I want as much scientific learning I can get, don't get me wrong I enjoy patient contact and medicine is not just science but still.I have a good reasoning skill set, please don't think I don't I always evaluate all the information and consider pros and cons and evaluate everything before making a decision and always try to see the other side of the argument.

    c)I was not aware of this, as the book I read about a neurosurgery was about an american neurosurgeon in america, I assumed it would be similar to what it is like in the US (book life in the frontal lobe).I love talking to patients don't get me wrong I think it is so great that as a physician you get to meet people from all walks of life.

    d) I think medical education in the UK is very superb and I believe it is one of the best.I'm not a fan of how in the US you have to have a bachelor degree before applying to medicine, but some may favour it but it is not for me.I would love to see data and statistics or any sources that show american medical schools have a superior education.

    e)I was exaggerating when I was talking about going most weekends.I just don't really want to be too far from home, it would be more comforting and perhaps instead of going home it would be easier for people from home to visit me instead, I dont know possibly? When I'm talkign about pbl I'm talking about:

    • The key difference between PBL and other methods of study is that you come up with your own learning objectives based on the cues in the scenarios you are presented with.
    • You go away and gather all of the information you need. This is usually in the form of private study and reading, but can also include lectures, teaching and clinical placements.
    • You then present your findings to your group and facilitator, and compare notes.

    Which I'm not very fond of, especially the first bullet point.Using cases to enhance learning is good but only relying on case studies is not for me.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Living costs at QUB are pretty low, certainly compared to Edinburgh, UCL, Imperial, etc.
    Probably, but Im still not sure if I would enjoy living in Belfast.I'm just not sure if I could see myself living there. Would I be right to make the assumption NI is quite a conservative area, if this is true that would put me off? < This might sound silly I guess.
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    (Original post by Anonymous1502)
    Probably, but Im still not sure if I would enjoy living in Belfast.I'm just not sure if I could see myself living there. Would I be right to make the assumption NI is quite a conservative area, if this is true that would put me off? < This might sound silly I guess.
    Conservative? No - there's very few conservatives in Northern Ireland. The Tory party have tried and failed to establish themselves there. There are their friends the DUP but they are (like all parties) a minority (thankfully).

    Belfast is a post-industrial regenerating city. There's plenty of working class people there.

    Or do you mean something else?
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Conservative? No - there's very few conservatives in Northern Ireland. The Tory party have tried and failed to establish themselves there. There are their friends the DUP but they are (like all parties) a minority (thankfully).

    Belfast is a post-industrial regenerating city. There's plenty of working class people there.

    Or do you mean something else?
    I meant in terms of mindset- this is a bit of a big deal for me as I'm more liberal and want to meet like minded people in terms of ideology.I get along with most people but it's nice to know people with similar belief's to your own.But about what you said, would you say Belfast is a labour strong hold, I dont know myself as I don't knwo anything about politics in NI.
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    (Original post by Anonymous1502)
    I meant in terms of mindset- this is a bit of a big deal for me as I'm more liberal and want to meet like minded people in terms of ideology.I get along with most people but it's nice to know people with similar belief's to your own.But about what you said, would you say Belfast is a labour strong hold, I dont know myself as I don't knwo anything about politics in NI.
    QUB is full of students. You will have many like-minded people and some people who aren't. That's the same anywhere.

    And politics in NI is fundamentally not about Conservatives/Labour/Liberal - and you wouldn't be expected to know anything about it. I wouldn't worry about it.

    If the course appeals, apply.
 
 
 
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