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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    I like how you’ve now changed “18 times more likely to be in a gang” to “18 times more likely to be a criminal”

    But honestly, if you think that there’s nothing wrong, prejudice or racist about an officer spotting a black person and thinking “that person is black so I’m going to stop them” then you’re part of the problem
    I'm glad that you like me conflating being in a gang with criminal activity.

    If the reason the police officer is stopping them is because they're black, then absolutely that's a problem.

    Can you prove that's why they're doing it? On the other hand, if they're in gang-controlled areas and think, "That guy is wearing gang colours in gang territory and acting suspiciously." then that is absolutely correct.

    And if someone who is black is 18 times more likely to be in a gang, then they are 18 times more likely to be in gang colours in gang territory.

    Perhaps you have some proof that the reason cops are stopping someone specifically because they're black and not because they're stopping people who appear suspicious?
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    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    I'm glad that you like me conflating being in a gang with criminal activity.

    If the reason the police officer is stopping them is because they're black, then absolutely that's a problem.

    Can you prove that's why they're doing it? On the other hand, if they're in gang-controlled areas and think, "That guy is wearing gang colours in gang territory and acting suspiciously." then that is absolutely correct.

    And if someone who is black is 18 times more likely to be in a gang, then they are 18 times more likely to be in gang colours in gang territory.

    Perhaps you have some proof that the reason cops are stopping someone specifically because they're black and not because they're stopping people who appear suspicious?
    Show me where you read that black people are 18 times more likely to be a criminal. Gang membership alone isn’t a criminal offence.

    Firstly, I never said that there’s anything wrong with stopping someone if you have genuine reason to believe that they have committed an offence. What I have a problem with is that you said that the police should stop a black person much more frequently than they would do a white person. That’s a prejudice and discriminatory way to think. You should never assume that someone is a criminal unless you have genuine reason to believe so, no matter what the statistics say.
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    Show me where you read that black people are 18 times more likely to be a criminal. Gang membership alone isn’t a criminal offence.

    Firstly, I never said that there’s anything wrong with stopping someone if you have genuine reason to believe that they have committed an offence. What I have a problem with is that you said that the police should stop a black person much more frequently than they would do a white person. That’s a prejudice and discriminatory way to think. You should never assume that someone is a criminal unless you have genuine reason to believe so, no matter what the statistics say.
    https://safe.met.police.uk/gangs_and...d_the_law.html

    But I honestly don't know what to say if you think statistics are meaningless. You can continue being offended that math is racist, and it honestly doesn't matter to me. If gang violence is a problem(And it is) and you are 18 times more likely to be part of a gang if you are black(And you are), then police tackling gang violence should be 18 times more likely to stop someone who is black when tackling gang violence.

    And you can shout about 'Discriminatory' until the end of time. If a man who is carrying an unlicensed gun gets stopped and happens to be black, he should go to prison. If a man is acting as a drug runner and is stopped and happens to be black, he should go to prison. If your argument is that black criminals shouldn't be disadvantaged compared to white criminals, and that appears to be the case, I simply don't care.

    Criminals should go to jail. And the ethnicity of the criminal isn't important to me. If someone is black and is committing violent crime or involved in illegal drug distribution, they should go to jail. Crying, "If I was white, you wouldn't have stopped me." is irrelevant. They wouldn't go to jail if they weren't committing a crime.
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    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    https://safe.met.police.uk/gangs_and...d_the_law.html

    But I honestly don't know what to say if you think statistics are meaningless. You can continue being offended that math is racist, and it honestly doesn't matter to me. If gang violence is a problem(And it is) and you are 18 times more likely to be part of a gang if you are black(And you are), then police tackling gang violence should be 18 times more likely to stop someone who is black when tackling gang violence.

    And you can shout about 'Discriminatory' until the end of time. If a man who is carrying an unlicensed gun gets stopped and happens to be black, he should go to prison. If a man is acting as a drug runner and is stopped and happens to be black, he should go to prison. If your argument is that black criminals shouldn't be disadvantaged compared to white criminals, and that appears to be the case, I simply don't care.

    Criminals should go to jail. And the ethnicity of the criminal isn't important to me. If someone is black and is committing violent crime or involved in illegal drug distribution, they should go to jail. Crying, "If I was white, you wouldn't have stopped me." is irrelevant. They wouldn't go to jail if they weren't committing a crime.
    Where in that link does it say that black people are 18 times more likely to be a criminal ?

    For the last time, I didn’t say that criminals shouldn’t be punished. I’m saying that skin colour should not be relevant when carrying out your job. The police shouldn’t think “the statistics say that blacks commit more crime than whites but so far I’ve only stopped and searched white people today so I need to make sure I stop some blacks too because the statistics said so”.

    Well of course you don’t care if black people are disadvantaged by the system, you’re white. It doesn’t affect you. If anything, it acts in your favour.

    Nice talk.
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    Choosing not to entertain the same thing over and over again is laziness? I suppose ignoring people who continue to quote me bs is also lazy? I’ll happily be lazy then!
    Well unless you prove it bs thats entirely cognitive dissonance. Copy and paste takes two seconds, unless anything you've already written doesn't cover the specific content you refer to in which case its a lazy way to deflect debate.

    I've also noticed you're quite happy to respond to numerous others so am having trouble believing you just cant be bothered to repeat yourself
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    (Original post by GonvilleBromhead)
    Well unless you prove it bs thats entirely cognitive dissonance. Copy and paste takes two seconds, unless anything you've already written doesn't cover the specific content you refer to in which case its a lazy way to deflect debate.

    I've also noticed you're quite happy to respond to numerous others so am having trouble believing you just cant be bothered to repeat yourself
    I’m allowed to decide who I respond to. If you think I’m lazy, that’s fine. I’m certainly not going to go back and forth with another stranger for another 4 days, it’s way too tedious. Have your opinion, I’ll have mine. The end
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    (Original post by the beer)
    Which of course drug offenses don't.
    I don't have time to look it up for myself. Could you link your source?
    Thanks.
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    Where in that link does it say that black people are 18 times more likely to be a criminal ?

    For the last time, I didn’t say that criminals shouldn’t be punished. I’m saying that skin colour should not be relevant when carrying out your job. The police shouldn’t think “the statistics say that blacks commit more crime than whites but so far I’ve only stopped and searched white people today so I need to make sure I stop some blacks too because the statistics said so”.

    Well of course you don’t care if black people are disadvantaged by the system, you’re white. It doesn’t affect you. If anything, it acts in your favour.

    Nice talk.
    In that link, it talks about the crime of 'Joint Enterprise'. Gangs that are responsible for criminal activity have those crimes extended to those who are a part of that group.

    So, just so you're aware, the original link I provided on gangs and statistics does not count groups like The Boy Scouts as a gang. While technically they wear colours and are arranged in group activities, they are not counted under 'Gangs' in that sense.

    So while the Blood and the Crips are gangs, they are engaged in criminal enterprise.

    You seem to think that the definition of 'Gangs' in this context is the 4H club or various YMCA programs. That is not what they mean.

    In this case, the gangs they refer to are those engaged in drug dealing, weapons trafficking, robberies, assaults or various other criminal enterprises - Which members are all accountable for.

    So, I realize you aren't going to understand this because you don't "believe" in statistics(So I guess you're probably an Amathematics in the same way an Atheist doesn't believe in God), but to repeat what has been said(In case I haven't been clear), if you are 18 times more likely to be in a gang, then anti-gang policing is 18 times more likely to affect you. You can yell 'Racist' at the top of your lungs all day long and it won't matter.

    As an example of something similar: Sickle Cell Anemia affects 8% of the black population and only trace numbers of the caucasian population. A doctor who specializes in treating sickle cell anemia is many thousands of times more likely to help someone black than someone who is white. That is not racist. That's just mathematics.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    I don't have time to look it up for myself. Could you link your source?
    Thanks.
    http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi...PH.2015.303032
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    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    In that link, it talks about the crime of 'Joint Enterprise'. Gangs that are responsible for criminal activity have those crimes extended to those who are a part of that group.

    So, just so you're aware, the original link I provided on gangs and statistics does not count groups like The Boy Scouts as a gang. While technically they wear colours and are arranged in group activities, they are not counted under 'Gangs' in that sense.

    So while the Blood and the Crips are gangs, they are engaged in criminal enterprise.

    You seem to think that the definition of 'Gangs' in this context is the 4H club or various YMCA programs. That is not what they mean.

    In this case, the gangs they refer to are those engaged in drug dealing, weapons trafficking, robberies, assaults or various other criminal enterprises - Which members are all accountable for.

    So, I realize you aren't going to understand this because you don't "believe" in statistics(So I guess you're probably an Amathematics in the same way an Atheist doesn't believe in God), but to repeat what has been said(In case I haven't been clear), if you are 18 times more likely to be in a gang, then anti-gang policing is 18 times more likely to affect you. You can yell 'Racist' at the top of your lungs all day long and it won't matter.

    As an example of something similar: Sickle Cell Anemia affects 8% of the black population and only trace numbers of the caucasian population. A doctor who specializes in treating sickle cell anemia is many thousands of times more likely to help someone black than someone who is white. That is not racist. That's just mathematics.
    You said that a black person is 18 times more likely to be a criminal. Where is the evidence of that?

    Simply being in a gang is not illegal. The link you posted literally says that. Not all gangs will engage in criminal activity, they’re just more likely to. Just as being in a gang doesn’t make you a criminal, being a criminal doesn’t mean you’re in a gang. I don’t know why you’re talking about boy scouts, being a member of any gang is not illegal, that includes the bloods and the crips who are known to have thousands of members. Not all of their members have a criminal record or are currently sitting in a jail cell you know. If the gang you’re in does engage in criminal activity then yes, you could also be liable for punishment but that’s not always the case if 1. You wasn’t present during the attack or 2. You were unaware that the crime was happening and you have sufficient evidence to support that.

    I don’t think you understand how statistics work. Yes, they show that black people are around 4 times more likely to be stopped and searched but these stats should have no bearing on how an officer carries out their job. I’ve said this three times now. Statistics only give a general idea of the patterns of criminality. If an officer on duty has no genuine reason to stop and search 10 black men then he shouldn’t stop and search 10 black men. If he has genuine reason to stop and search 10 white men then he should stop and search 10 white men regardless of what the statistics say!

    The statistics say that cervical cancer is most common in older women, so under 25s aren’t screened for it. Whilst it may be true that older women get it more, we have seen cases of women under 25 dying from cervical cancer because they were not tested, because the statistics said they probably won’t have it. Statistics should not be heavily relied on, we should actually stop giving them so much power.

    Your example of sickle cell isn’t racist. A doctor may be more likely to treat a black person for sickle cell but that shouldn’t determine how the doctor carries out their job. If he has reason to believe that a European person has sickle cell then the European person should be tested for it. Just as it’s not impossible for European people to have sickle cell, and it’s not impossible for young women to get cervical cancer, it’s not impossible for white people to be gang members who commit crime. All should be treated on an individual case by case basis, not according to statistics.
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)

    Your example of sickle cell isn’t racist. A doctor may be more likely to treat a black person for sickle cell but that shouldn’t determine how the doctor carries out their job. If he has reason to believe that a European person has sickle cell then the European person should be tested for it. Just as it’s not impossible for European people to have sickle cell, and it’s not impossible for young women to get cervical cancer, it’s not impossible for white people to be gang members who commit crime. All should be treated on an individual case by case basis, not according to statistics.
    I'm glad you brought up 'Impossibilities' in this case. Because, and this might surprise you: White people do go to prison. And white gangs do get arrested and searched.

    https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndtx/pr...-swift-justice

    These were members of a white supremacist gang who were caught, arrested and sentenced. And I'm glad they were caught, arrested and sentenced because they were criminals and in a gang.

    If you belong to the bloods or the crips, you -should- be investigated and police -should- spend more time on you than on others. If you belong to the Mafia, you -should- be investigated and the police -should- spend more time on you. You have chosen to associate with criminals and, while that does not make you a criminal, it does mean you have chosen to associate with people that the police spend time around. If police are around you and you are committing a criminal activity, you are more likely to be arrested.

    http://www.d.umn.edu/~jarthur/notes/...ed%20Crime.pdf

    Here is a scholarly article on the relationship between gangs and crime.

    If you are black, you are 18 times more likely to join a gang than if you are caucasian. Gangs and crime are correlated. Police are interested in crime and thus spend more time on gangs than other areas.

    How you can not see the clear relationship between being in a gang and being more likely to be arrested is beyond me. How you can not see that being part of organized crime groups makes the police more interested in you and more likely to investigate you is beyond me.

    Do you see how circular your argument is? "Institutional racism exists because black people are arrested more often than whites. Blacks are arrested more often than whites because institutional racism exists."

    You understand how your belief is like a religion, right? It's dogma that is unfalsifiable. In any argument, falsifiability is absolutely vital. If there is no test to show that your hypothesis is wrong, then your hypothesis is meaningless as a statement.
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    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    I'm glad you brought up 'Impossibilities' in this case. Because, and this might surprise you: White people do go to prison. And white gangs do get arrested and searched.

    https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndtx/pr...-swift-justice

    These were members of a white supremacist gang who were caught, arrested and sentenced. And I'm glad they were caught, arrested and sentenced because they were criminals and in a gang.

    If you belong to the bloods or the crips, you -should- be investigated and police -should- spend more time on you than on others. If you belong to the Mafia, you -should- be investigated and the police -should- spend more time on you. You have chosen to associate with criminals and, while that does not make you a criminal, it does mean you have chosen to associate with people that the police spend time around. If police are around you and you are committing a criminal activity, you are more likely to be arrested.

    http://www.d.umn.edu/~jarthur/notes/...ed%20Crime.pdf

    Here is a scholarly article on the relationship between gangs and crime.

    If you are black, you are 18 times more likely to join a gang than if you are caucasian. Gangs and crime are correlated. Police are interested in crime and thus spend more time on gangs than other areas.

    How you can not see the clear relationship between being in a gang and being more likely to be arrested is beyond me. How you can not see that being part of organized crime groups makes the police more interested in you and more likely to investigate you is beyond me.

    Do you see how circular your argument is? "Institutional racism exists because black people are arrested more often than whites. Blacks are arrested more often than whites because institutional racism exists."

    You understand how your belief is like a religion, right? It's dogma that is unfalsifiable. In any argument, falsifiability is absolutely vital. If there is no test to show that your hypothesis is wrong, then your hypothesis is meaningless as a statement.
    :yawn:
    So you are happy with the result, that more blacks are incarcerated for drugs offenses despite being no more likely to commit them?
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    (Original post by the beer)
    :yawn:
    So you are happy with the result, that more blacks are incarcerated for drugs offenses despite being no more likely to commit them?
    I will clarify this question if you clarify mine:

    Do you care what my answer is? If tomorrow the police said, "Set every person in jail for possession free. Anything less than intent to distribute is a misdemeanor that deserves no more than a fine." would you then say, "Okay. Then, Institutional racism would not exist if that happened."
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    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    Do you care what my answer is?
    Wouldn't ask if i didn't.

    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    If tomorrow the police said, "Set every person in jail for possession free. Anything less than intent to distribute is a misdemeanor that deserves no more than a fine." would you then say, "Okay. Then, Institutional racism would not exist if that happened."
    I doubt it, don't know enough about the subject but i do know that this is a clear example that we can do something about.
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    (Original post by the beer)
    Wouldn't ask if i didn't.



    I doubt it, don't know enough about the subject but i do know that this is a clear example that we can do something about.
    Okay. I have already said and I'll say it again: Possession is a silly crime that should not be prosecuted. There is clear data that those arrested for possession often just get tossed in jail with people who provide them with skills to commit worse crimes; Also, ex-cons find it difficult to find work and this encourages worse crimes when they leave as crime and welfare becomes the sole source of reliable income.

    But... Even if tomorrow that changed, until a change in the culture happens that stops various groups from joining organized crime, the various groups that are more likely to join organized crime will be disproportionately imprisoned for offences related to that organized crime. 18 times more likely, as a matter of fact.
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    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    Okay. I have already said and I'll say it again: Possession is a silly crime that should not be prosecuted. There is clear data that those arrested for possession often just get tossed in jail with people who provide them with skills to commit worse crimes; Also, ex-cons find it difficult to find work and this encourages worse crimes when they leave as crime and welfare becomes the sole source of reliable income.
    Great so you accept there is a problem and there are some reasonably easy and sensible solutions, it seemed to me from this thread that you were perfectly happy with the situation.

    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    But... Even if tomorrow that changed, until a change in the culture happens that stops various groups from joining organized crime, the various groups that are more likely to join organized crime will be disproportionately imprisoned for offences related to that organized crime. 18 times more likely, as a matter of fact.
    Other than drug offenses what are blacks disproportionately imprisoned for?
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    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    I'm glad you brought up 'Impossibilities' in this case. Because, and this might surprise you: White people do go to prison. And white gangs do get arrested and searched.

    https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndtx/pr...-swift-justice

    These were members of a white supremacist gang who were caught, arrested and sentenced. And I'm glad they were caught, arrested and sentenced because they were criminals and in a gang.

    If you belong to the bloods or the crips, you -should- be investigated and police -should- spend more time on you than on others. If you belong to the Mafia, you -should- be investigated and the police -should- spend more time on you. You have chosen to associate with criminals and, while that does not make you a criminal, it does mean you have chosen to associate with people that the police spend time around. If police are around you and you are committing a criminal activity, you are more likely to be arrested.

    http://www.d.umn.edu/~jarthur/notes/...ed%20Crime.pdf

    Here is a scholarly article on the relationship between gangs and crime.

    If you are black, you are 18 times more likely to join a gang than if you are caucasian. Gangs and crime are correlated. Police are interested in crime and thus spend more time on gangs than other areas.

    How you can not see the clear relationship between being in a gang and being more likely to be arrested is beyond me. How you can not see that being part of organized crime groups makes the police more interested in you and more likely to investigate you is beyond me.

    Do you see how circular your argument is? "Institutional racism exists because black people are arrested more often than whites. Blacks are arrested more often than whites because institutional racism exists."

    You understand how your belief is like a religion, right? It's dogma that is unfalsifiable. In any argument, falsifiability is absolutely vital. If there is no test to show that your hypothesis is wrong, then your hypothesis is meaningless as a statement.
    For goodness sake. I didn’t say that white people dont get arrested. I didn’t say that they don’t go to prison. I said that your statement that police should be stopping and searching black people at 18 times the rate of white people is offensive. You call it “maths” but by definition, it’s institutional racism. Officers have been suspended from their job for saying things like that. You should stop someone if you think they’ve committed a crime and you have reason to believe so, and not for any other reason. Do you honestly disagree with that?

    Police recorded statistics are flawed and we’re rold not to take them at face value, which is why crime surveys (like the british crime survey of England and Wales) exist. By policing black people much more frequently than you would white people, you are bound to find them guilty of an offence much more often than you would white people, because you are actively searching for it. This doesn’t necessarily mean that black people commt more crime, but the official statistics would have you believing that.

    Gangs and crime may be correlated but you’re making assumptions based on one stat. I’ve not seen any evidence to say that black people are 18 times more likely to be a criminal. That’s a bold statement to make with no evidence provided.

    I didn’t say that gangs shouldn’t be investigated. I didn’t say that the police shouldn’t be interested in organised crime groups either so I don’t know why you keep making up things that you allege I said.

    My argument is not that institutional racism exists because blacks are arrested more than whites. Firstly, some ex police officers have already been found to be institutionally racist in Mark Dalys documentary if you haven’t seen that. Secondly, Theresa May stated “If you’re black, you’re treated more harshly by the criminal justice system than if you’re white”. If you think that comment isn’t linked to institutional racism then idk what to tell you. I know you don’t care, but fortunately, a lot of other people do. Thirdly, in 2015, a met chief said that claims of institutional racism are somewhat justified. But the concept of institutional racism extends further than the cjs. There’s evidence to suggest it also exists in mental health and in the workforce.
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    That would appear to show the prevalence of substance abuse issues amongst different groups rather than the ratio of crimes committed to incarceration rate. Does it contain evidence that whites commit more drug-related crime than blacks, but get away with it because of their colour?
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    Ok, so i would just like to say as a Black, Muslim Female (POC) that white privilege does exist... Can a POC tell me overwise because it seems that only white people disagree with this type of privilege.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Does it contain evidence that whites commit more drug-related crime than blacks, but get away with it because of their colour?
    Yep, it shows that white non Hispanics abuse drugs more than any other group, incarceration rates are pretty easy to find, plenty of others studies out there but i'm not going to go running around finding them if you can't be bothered to read them, given the amount you post here i'm sure you can find time.
 
 
 
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