Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by the beer)
    Yep, it shows that white non Hispanics abuse drugs more than any other group, incarceration rates are pretty easy to find, plenty of others studies out there but i'm not going to go running around finding them if you can't be bothered to read them, given the amount you post here i'm sure you can find time.
    This is the thing. All the ststs I have found suggest that incarceration rates seem to match crime rates, ie. more people incarcerated is usually due to more people committing the crimes.

    As I said, the study you linked does not address this issue, but the seperate one of drug misuse disorders amongst different groups. If a gang of convicted drug traffickers and dealers were not users, they would not show in that survey, for example.
    Offline

    8
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    This is the thing. All the ststs I have found suggest that incarceration rates seem to match crime rates, ie. more people incarcerated is usually due to more people committing the crimes.
    Ah great, can you post them here?

    (Original post by QE2)
    As I said, the study you linked does not address this issue, but the seperate one of drug misuse disorders amongst different groups. If a gang of convicted drug traffickers and dealers were not users, they would not show in that survey, for example.
    It's not separate, possession is a crime too and abuse is linked to higher rates of drug dealing.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    My argument is not that institutional racism exists because blacks are arrested more than whites. Firstly, some ex police officers have already been found to be institutionally racist in Mark Dalys documentary if you haven’t seen that. Secondly, Theresa May stated “If you’re black, you’re treated more harshly by the criminal justice system than if you’re white”. If you think that comment isn’t linked to institutional racism then idk what to tell you. I know you don’t care, but fortunately, a lot of other people do. Thirdly, in 2015, a met chief said that claims of institutional racism are somewhat justified. But the concept of institutional racism extends further than the cjs. There’s evidence to suggest it also exists in mental health and in the workforce.
    Right, okay - So I know you don't believe in statistics, so there's no point in discussing those. Instead, I'm going to take a different tack:

    If a police officer stops someone - Regardless of race - And finds that they are guilty of a crime(Like... Say... Enough drugs to prove intent to distribute or various weapons charges), is that person a criminal?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    In my opinion the term white privilege is used so much as a negative phrase at any white person for a number of reasons , for example I saw a post calling someone racist when the post was actually fake and what happens , the 'shut your white privilege up' gets fired , do white people have the struggles and weight of the vile history of the world on their shoulders ? No , but not all white people are to blame . It makes me sad that when people try to show interest on these issues and have something to say we're nothing but 'White this ' 'white that' but it's fine to say that , turning the tables is racist . Feel like people's language simply fuels fires nowadays , just an opinion
    Online

    13
    ReputationRep:
    I feel as though white privilege might be geographically-specific. If you're talking about white privilege in the US, then you can make a much stronger argument because there is actual evidence to suggest African Americans have faced large-scale, systemic discrimination for over a century, whilst other groups, particularly white Americans have been allowed to flourish. In the UK, that is a little harder to pinpoint. Of course in the UK, social class is far more of a determinant of success than race, but the two still have some overlap. For example, it's likely that many minorities earn less than their white counterparts in the same class. There is also a likelihood that minorities aren't somewhat evenly spread across the social classes; the majority are probably working class. They likely live in poorer neighbourhoods as a result, and attend schools that have less resources. This has a significant impact on the likelihood that their child might succeed. If we step back a bit and imagine this visually, it'd be easy to see that a significant proportion of white people are middle-class, and the majority of brown/black people are working class. It would follow that the environments and cultural norms of the white middle-class majority (i.e. the privilege) are very different to the environment that a black/brown person experiences.

    Of course, the caveat is poor white people. Some would say they exist because hard-labour jobs still exist and someone must do them. Others say they probably didn't work hard enough. I'm not sure. They definitely are not privileged in the sense that they can ascend the social mobility ladder at any point. But, if we were to list the obstacles a black working class person could face and the obstacles a white working class person could face, I would think that the latter would have an easier time transitioning into the middle-class. Not a sociologist or economist so this might be BS from me. Essentially, in my understanding of white privilege, it is not that white people are always better off financially, but that at every level of the social/class hierarchy a white person (all else equal) will have the better chance of succeeding than a black/brown person of the same/lower class.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    Right, okay - So I know you don't believe in statistics, so there's no point in discussing those. Instead, I'm going to take a different tack:

    If a police officer stops someone - Regardless of race - And finds that they are guilty of a crime(Like... Say... Enough drugs to prove intent to distribute or various weapons charges), is that person a criminal?
    Of course
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    Of course
    And you agree, as you said before, that regardless of ethnicity conviction rates are roughly the same per arrest? That nobody is actively planting evidence or arranging a massive conspiracy to convict specific ethnicities?
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    And you agree, as you said before, that regardless of ethnicity conviction rates are roughly the same per arrest? That nobody is actively planting evidence or arranging a massive conspiracy to convict specific ethnicities?
    Yes, by the CPS
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    So many people have absolutely no clue of what privilege means. Lmfao.

    Dear white people, no one is saying your life can't be hard if you're white, but it's not hard because you're white.

    Even worse are the people trying to link it not to race but to social status. Completely ignoring the massive correlation :rolleyes:
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by francesca2442)
    In my opinion the term white privilege is used so much as a negative phrase at any white person for a number of reasons , for example I saw a post calling someone racist when the post was actually fake and what happens , the 'shut your white privilege up' gets fired , do white people have the struggles and weight of the vile history of the world on their shoulders ? No , but not all white people are to blame . It makes me sad that when people try to show interest on these issues and have something to say we're nothing but 'White this ' 'white that' but it's fine to say that , turning the tables is racist . Feel like people's language simply fuels fires nowadays , just an opinion
    Do you know what the problem is? White people thinking "white privilege" is aimed at them personally, and in turn everyone. Like guys who think menaretrash is aimed at them, they would be right. Those that don't think that, know it's not about them.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    White privilege is real

    White culture doesn't exist

    Multiculturalism is genocidal race replacement and a positive thing


    Deny this and you're a Nazi

    I win!
    Offline

    8
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    This is the thing. All the ststs I have found suggest that incarceration rates seem to match crime rates, ie. more people incarcerated is usually due to more people committing the crimes.
    Any chance we can see them?
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by the beer)
    Any chance we can see them?
    There are many. This one clearly shows that the proportion of arrests, prosecutions and convictions are all consistent.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...0/bulletin.pdf

    As I said, if you have evidence that shows that white people are bing arrested for crimes but subsequently let off because of their colour, I would be interested to see it.

    In fact, you will notice from the above report that the ratio of arrests to convictions shows that if you are black you are slightly less likely to be convicted (although the amount is statistically negligable).
    Offline

    8
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    There are many. This one clearly shows that the proportion of arrests, prosecutions and convictions are all consistent.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...0/bulletin.pdf

    As I said, if you have evidence that shows that white people are bing arrested for crimes but subsequently let off because of their colour, I would be interested to see it.

    In fact, you will notice from the above report that the ratio of arrests to convictions shows that if you are black you are slightly less likely to be convicted (although the amount is statistically negligable).
    You seem to be arguing a separate issue, I've not claimed anything about the ratio of arrests to convictions, I'm saying whites are a lot less likely to be arrested for drugs offenses than blacks despite being just as likely to commit them.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by the beer)
    You seem to be arguing a separate issue, I've not claimed anything about the ratio of arrests to convictions, I'm saying whites are a lot less likely to be arrested for drugs offenses than blacks despite being just as likely to commit them.
    The likelihood of being arrested for any offence committed is determined by one factor - the police having suspicion or information that a crime has been committed.

    I'm not sure what point you are attempting to make if the relative proportions are all consistent. If there were a disproportionate number of arrests compared prosecutions and convictions, I would understand - but there aren't.

    Being arrested for something that you have done is not evidence of discrimination.
    Offline

    8
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    The likelihood of being arrested for any offence committed is determined by one factor - the police having suspicion or information that a crime has been committed.
    As a white male that has been caught several times by police in possession of drugs and worse but never arrested i can assure you that is not the case.

    (Original post by QE2)
    I'm not sure what point you are attempting to make if the relative proportions are all consistent.
    They're not, as i said blacks are no more likely to commit drugs offenses than whites but are far more likely to be arrested.

    (Original post by QE2)
    Being arrested for something that you have done is not evidence of discrimination.
    It is when one group is being arrested for an offense while another isn't.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    The likelihood of being arrested for any offence committed is determined by one factor - the police having suspicion or information that a crime has been committed.

    I'm not sure what point you are attempting to make if the relative proportions are all consistent. If there were a disproportionate number of arrests compared prosecutions and convictions, I would understand - but there aren't.

    Being arrested for something that you have done is not evidence of discrimination.
    Therein lies the problem. The argument appears to be that black criminals are disparately arrested compared to white criminals.

    I'm not certain 'Criminals' are a protected class and am not sure why I should care. Especially with lack of evidence that's the case.
    Offline

    8
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    I'm not certain 'Criminals' are a protected class and am not sure why I should care.
    You said it yourself.


    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    There is clear data that those arrested for possession often just get tossed in jail with people who provide them with skills to commit worse crimes; Also, ex-cons find it difficult to find work and this encourages worse crimes when they leave as crime and welfare becomes the sole source of reliable income.

    We're driving them into gangs.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    Well at the moment I'm struggling to get an apartment because once the landlords know am black they all of a sudden claim to have other applicants.
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TeaAndLifting)
    Privilege is a thing everywhere. Those in power, or those that have a long lineage of a high social status will afford privileges to people that have been put through a similar system compared to those that don't. The ones at the top of the pile will not face the same stereotypes as those at the bottom. It's pretty natural to preferpeople cut from the same cloth, generally, because you have more in common with them and are more likely to get along. So, in the UK, the education system benefits those who've had a private education over public education, for example. People growing up in middle-class suburbs and rural villages will have a better start in life, standard of living, etc. through no virtue of their own and that will generally pass on to their kids, and grandkids.

    It also happens in ways you don't wouldn't recognise. I have never been involved in a stop and search, people usually apply positive attributes to me, etc. A black friend growing up in a similar situation as me and has been in the public eye, still gets treated as a foreigner by some people, has been stopped and searched, has been discriminated against because his natural hair did not suit school regulations, etc. despite being a better person than I ever was. A lot of this stuff I was completely oblivious to until recent years, as we've grown up. Imagine being told you can't sit exams because your hair naturally grows into an afro and having to constantly shave your head because of negative associations staff made with that type of hair. Or being stopped and searched because of your colour, through no fault of your own, but because people had stereotypes about your race. It's not really that nice. I don't really know that many Asian people, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear about how often they get called a "terrorist", "paedophile worshipper", etc. because of their skin colour. I am privileged in that I never have and never will experience those things.

    I have no idea about the hardships people growing up in inner-city council estates have. I have had the fortune of never being treated like a second-class citizen like when people talk about "chavs", "gypsies", etc. I didn't go to a crappy comp school where people had parents and families that didn't care for education because the system never helped them out, which perpetuates in kids that don't care either, becuase there are no role models in their household. But I'm aware that my life has generally been a lot more comfortable than those people and I had an advantage on that alone, and that I'm lucky to have grown up how I did. Everyone has their own trials and tribulations.

    If you say that there's no such thing as privilege, you're completely lacking in empathy or understanding to what others may go through and completely dismiss it, because growing up in a middle-class, white, rural village is definitely not the same as growing up in a working-class city council estate. Let alone after you factor race or even sex as an additonal variable, because those can compound things.

    I think a lot of people go about it the wrong way, though. Shaming others because of privilege doesn't mean anything. Screaming at somebody that they're privileged is not helpful or productive. Forcing quotas may seem helpful, because you're making systematic changes from the top and giving people from disadvantaged groups role models and such, but it also leaves a lot of people feeling bitter because it's an "eye for an eye" type approach, where you flip the tables and impose some reverse discrimination. That ends up leaving those that previously benefited, bitter and resentful because they got a taste of negative stereotyping and constantly leads to questions about the capability of the person that replaced them; are they good enough on their own merit, or was it a charity case? Either way, it breeds resentment, as you often see in forums, espcially right-leaning ones, because the people that end up there weren't expected to empathise with disadvantaged people, but shamed to that point. It doesn't solve anything and creates more division. I'm not all knowing, so I can't suggest a fix. But a little bit of empathy can go a long way. A lot further than screaming and shouting, anyway.


    It's definitely a thing. You can tell when you see how people react to being racially profiled in countries that do not care for it. For example, in Japan, a lot of foreign workers, even those that have lived there for decades complain about being racially discriminated by the police, ex-pats being treated as an eternal fresh off the boat foreigner, being stared at, patronisd, etc. Some people come back from working in Japan feeling really bitter because they aren't afforded the same privileges they were used to back home. People will say that's because Japan is extremely racist and xenophobic, but it's no worse than anywhere else, really. People, especially white foreigners, will take extra offence because they've never been treated as an "other" before. It's just a taste of life as a minority.

    It isn't as strong now as it was in the past. But there will always be some privileges afforded to those that benefit most from the system. It's just how it is. The way the system here works, primarily gives advantages to people with a private education. A lot of the reason why people ***** about stuff now is because others are trying to turn the tides in a "let's reverse the roles without explanation" way, rather than an "empathise with less privileged people, recognise the privilege you have and try to help/understand others" way. So instead of making people try to understand why it's sh*t being negatively stereotyped in certain ways and how it affects them, people just shout and scream and use terms like "white privilege" as a blanket term. It's not helpful. I remember seeing a comment on Facebook by some melt saying "white males are the most discriminated group ever" and that's only because of the current, volatile political climate. God knows how a melt like that would cope with the type of stuff you hear people from black and asian backgrounds get. But that's partly because he sees the constant shame culture these days, rather than someone telling him what it's like growing up as a black working-class male, for example.

    Privilege isn't universal, either. Privilege comes in different shapes and forms. Education, familiy, etc. all afford different types of privilege. Someone from a working-class background suffers from types of discrimination another person from a middle-class background will not. Like you said, somebody from a Romanian, Bulgarian or even Polish background will have a less than savoury stereotype applied to them, despite being white. Same with Irish travelers, etc. And not every type of privilege is equal. But, if you're in a majority white country, white people will tend to benefit from the system more than someone that isn't, all other factors being equal. That's how it is, everywhere in the world. Just like how a Japanese system will benefit native Japanese. If your surname is Johnson, you're at a natural advantage to someone with the surname, Hussein, even if every other factor is equal. It's nice to be aware of it, because you recognise that not everything is on your own merit and the advantages you have. There's nothing wrong with admitting that you got some help along the way. Of course, most people don't like to admit they ever needed help. It also helps, because you can learn to recognise that other people didn't get the same leg up as you did and to lend a sympathetic ear if wanted and help, if needed.
    Great in-depth response.
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Did TEF Bronze Award affect your UCAS choices?
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.