New Zealand’s PM: Capitalism is a ‘blatant failure’ Watch

ChaoticButterfly
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a8012656.html


Are the Tories going to start threatening the UK will turn into New Zealand if we elect Corbyn?
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Ambitious1999
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a8012656.html


Are the Tories going to start threatening the UK will turn into New Zealand if we elect Corbyn?
I'm not so sure. New Zealand has a lot of Maoists, it has had for a very long time. But I very much doubt Corbyn is a Maoist, sure he's left wing but not a Maoist.

If anything Corbyn is probably more Trotskyite and they strongly oppose Stalinism ( which gave birth to Maoism) as much as they oppose capitalism.
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username878267
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In the past few days the Financial Times have run numerous articles on how capitalism is failing and how it needs altering.

This new-found criticism and critique of capitalism as part of mainstream political discourse barely seemed possible just a couple of years ago. The economic consensus has been shattered and the economic argument is now up for grabs again.

It's exciting!
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zhog
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Go for it, turn NZ into another Marxist experiment and let us know how it goes. It is an absolute scandal for them to have hundreds of thousands of children at home with 'not enough to survive on (sic)'. Do us all a favour, take McDonnell over and put him in charge, proper social warrior he is. He will fix it all, the needy children will all be looked after by the State.

Leftist propaganda is an insult to intelligence. Fall for it if it suits you.
.
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username878267
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(Original post by zhog)
Go for it, turn NZ into another Marxist experiment and let us know how it goes. It is an absolute scandal for them to have hundreds of thousands of children at home with 'not enough to survive on (sic)'. Do us all a favour, take McDonnell over and put him in charge, proper social warrior he is. He will fix it all, the needy children will all be looked after by the State.

Leftist propaganda is an insult to intelligence. Fall for it if it suits you.
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Yes, because anyone who dares criticise Capitalism or siggest policies as radical as building houses, is a Marxist...

To many on the right, that seems to be the level of political discourse and discussion that they are capable of.

You know child benefit was actually a rather traditional right wing policy, so that the mother could stay at home and look after the kids. Hardly seems revolutionary communist.
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ChaoticButterfly
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(Original post by zhog)
Go for it, turn NZ into another Marxist experiment and let us know how it goes. It is an absolute scandal for them to have hundreds of thousands of children at home with 'not enough to survive on (sic)'. Do us all a favour, take McDonnell over and put him in charge, proper social warrior he is. He will fix it all, the needy children will all be looked after by the State.

Leftist propaganda is an insult to intelligence. Fall for it if it suits you.
.
Unless you can come up with a none "Marxist" way to fix capitalism for the people who are starving you are doing Marx's work for him. He thought capitalism was contradictory and will always leave a certain number of people with next to nothing. You agree in the inevitability of this. If you want to save capitalism from the primitive socialist instincts of the masses (https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/...last-election/ ) you should stop sneering and actually do something constructive to save capitalism from itself.

Marxists are everywhere nowadays. They are even at the commanding heights of capitalism.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a8014616.html
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zhog
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(Original post by Bornblue)
Yes, because anyone who dares criticise Capitalism or siggest policies as radical as building houses, is a Marxist...
No, criticism of Capitalism is on. Saying stupid things like 'Capitalism is a blatant failure' can only come from a Marxist. Corbyn and McDonnell, for instance. I'm sorry but I really regard it as absolute idiocy.

You know child benefit was actually a rather traditional right wing policy, so that the mother could stay at home and look after the kids. Hardly seems revolutionary communist.
So... what?
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zhog
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
Unless you can come up with a none "Marxist" way to fix capitalism for the people who are starving you are doing Marx's work for him. He thought capitalism was contradictory and will always leave a certain number of people with next to nothing. You agree in the inevitability of this.
Who is starving and who has next to nothing? This is the traditional framing of the argument in emotive terms in order to gain a foothold on the moral ground, it implies all that follows is legitimate by nature. So who are you talking about, specificallly? Are you one of them?
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edd522
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I've watched the vid and she doesn't mention "capitalism", just says that it is a failure when you 100,000 homeless children.

The Independent is a rag.
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zhog
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(Original post by edd522)
I've watched the vid and she doesn't mention "capitalism", just says that it is a failure when you 100,000 homeless children.
Fake news!

The Independent is a rag.
More fake news!
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username878267
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(Original post by zhog)
No, criticism of Capitalism is on. Saying stupid things like 'Capitalism is a blatant failure' can only come from a Marxist. Corbyn and McDonnell, for instance. I'm sorry but I really regard it as absolute idiocy.



So... what?
Lots of business leaders this week have been writing in the Financial Times about how capitalism is failing.

I guess the head of M&S and other sized companies must also be Marxist?

Clearly free market capitalism is failing to provide people with security and opportunity at the moment. That's one of the main reasons people are starting to turn against it and the economic debate has been reopened.
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zhog
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(Original post by Bornblue)
Clearly free market capitalism is failing to provide people with security and opportunity at the moment. That's one of the main reasons people are starting to turn against it and the economic debate has been reopened.
Clearly not, this is all based on sandcastles as ever. Capitalism has over the past century alone elevated living standards around the world like never before and the people you guys purport to have so much at heart are actually the main beneficiaries of it. It's capitalism that generates trading and aid for the undeveloped regions of the world, that is the way out for them. Not this utopian vision where 'everyone is provided with security' and equally useless discourse.

What is this economic debate we're having reopened then, that Marxism may 'provide more security and opportunity'? I'm done with all that, go sell it to the chinese.
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username878267
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(Original post by zhog)
Clearly not, this is all based on sandcastles as ever. Capitalism has over the past century alone elevated living standards around the world like never before and the people you guys purport to have so much at heart are actually the main beneficiaries of it. It's capitalism that generates trading and aid for the undeveloped regions of the world, that is the way out for them. Not this utopian vision where 'everyone is provided with security' and equally useless discourse.

What is this economic debate we're having reopened then, that Marxism may 'provide more security and opportunity'? I'm done with all that, go sell it to the chinese.
Maybe we're all just imagining people not being able to afford houses, homelessness, the need for food banks and low productivity. Is that just all leftist propaganda too? Is it also leftist propaganda that wages are rising slower than inflation?
Are people queuing outside foodbanks because they can't afford to feed their kids the main beneficiaries of capitalism? Are people who live on the streets the main beneficiaries of capitalism? Are people who have to rely on tax credits because their wages are so low, the main beneficiaries of capitalism?

The Financial Times and leaders of several huge UK companies must be Marxist then? How interesting.

https://www.ft.com/content/da9aa4ce-...e5589?mhq5j=e5

'Businesses must help fix the failures of capitalism'

So the Financial Times are Marxist?


Again, you described anyone who so much as criticises Capitalism as being Marxist. Not that you actually know what Marxism is, mind. Given how it's not an economic system, it's a socio economic analysis.
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zhog
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(Original post by Bornblue)
Maybe we're all just imagining people not being able to afford houses, homelessness, the need for food banks and low productivity. Is that just all leftist propaganda too? Is it also leftist propaganda that wages are rising slower than inflation?
Of course it is the usual catalogue of misrepresentations by the left couple with their delusionary belief that they could improve on any of that. People not being able to afford houses is not an argument against capitalism at all, in most places under the sun capitalism doesn't prevent people from buying them. It is utterly absurd to pick and cherry focalized situations on this earth to campaign for a change in the economic system we feed from. Food banks are better for people than the failed Marxist experiments in the last century, Ukrainians welcomed the Nazis as liberators from people who 'had a problem with capitalism'. And low productivity, is that an argument against capitalism? They're much more productive in other parts of the capitalist world.

Are people queuing outside foodbanks because they can't afford to feed their kids the main beneficiaries of capitalism? Are people who live on the streets the main beneficiaries of capitalism? Are people who have to rely on tax credits because their wages are so low, the main beneficiaries of capitalism?
Show me a real case, we will look into it to see if capitalism is the problem.

The Financial Times and leaders of several huge UK companies must be Marxist then? How interesting.
They remind me of american football players protesting against discrimination. Never seen a more apt comparative methaphor for turkeys and Christmas, doing the Corbynista bidding like that. Why can't they focus and build upon the successes of capitalism? I'm gonna go now.
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username878267
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(Original post by zhog)
Of course it is the usual catalogue of misrepresentations by the left couple with their delusionary belief that they could improve on any of that. People not being able to afford houses is not an argument against capitalism at all, in most places under the sun capitalism doesn't prevent people from buying them. It is utterly absurd to pick and cherry focalized situations on this earth to campaign for a change in the economic system we feed from. Food banks are better for people than the failed Marxist experiments in the last century, Ukrainians welcomed the Nazis as liberators from people who 'had a problem with capitalism'. And low productivity, is that an argument against capitalism? They're much more productive in other parts of the capitalist world.



Show me a real case, we will look into it to see if capitalism is the problem.



They remind me of american football players protesting against discrimination. Never seen a more apt comparative methaphor for turkeys and Christmas, doing the Corbynista bidding like that. Why can't they focus and build upon the successes of capitalism? I'm gonna go now.
Godwins Law! You've finally mentioned the Nazis.


In Democratic Socialist countries such as in Scandaniva, poverty and homelessness is much lower, wages are higher and standard of living is higher.

When it's good you say it's capitalism, when it's bad you say it's not capitalism.

No true scotsman indeed.

Again though, I find it funny you refer to Marx again. Are you incapable of debating capitalism's drawbacks and shortcomings without accusing anyone who argues against aspects of capitalism of being a Marxist? The leaders of some of UK's largest and most successful businesses are saying capitalism is failing. Considering their expertise and success, I think they're worth listening to. Don't you?

The economic debate is shifting. Increasing numbers of people are critical of free market capitalism and even many on the right are starting to admit its flaws. 40% of the population voted for a Socialist. I wonder what your reaction will be if Corbyn becomes Prime Minister.
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FakeNewsEditor
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Even if he's right, and I don't know why the PM of NZ would've some special insight that, e,g., the PM of Croatia wouldn't have, what are even the "solutions" the radical left offers? blow the whole system and reduce economic competition and entrepreneurship because profits are "bad"? whatever problems the West faces, they will be solved by more international competition and trade, more economic specialisation and most important of all, a highly elevated status of entrepreneurs. They won't be solved by state handouts, safety nets and such non-solutions.

Good day.
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username878267
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The former head of the CBI is the latest high profile business person to criticise capitalism. I guess he must be a Marxist too?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.b...iness-41744127
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humanteaparty
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If you don't study economics dont talk about this like you know what any of it means. Having full capitalism is a disaster. Having full socialism is a disaster. Anyone who says one is inherently better than the other is an idiot.
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Captain Haddock
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(Original post by zhog)
Clearly not, this is all based on sandcastles as ever. Capitalism has over the past century alone elevated living standards around the world like never before and the people you guys purport to have so much at heart are actually the main beneficiaries of it. It's capitalism that generates trading and aid for the undeveloped regions of the world, that is the way out for them. Not this utopian vision where 'everyone is provided with security' and equally useless discourse.

What is this economic debate we're having reopened then, that Marxism may 'provide more security and opportunity'? I'm done with all that, go sell it to the chinese.
*******s. We work longer hours producing more than ever before in return for stagnant wages and a morbid diet of workplace stress and anxiety. We then allay those anxieties by dutifully observing the capitalist sacrament of consumption, hoodwinked by marketers and advertisers into believing their products will make us happier, slimmer, smarter, richer... We are thus blessed with an illusory sense of agency in a world where the means of production and our own birthright, the Earth itself, have been misappropriated by a covetous elite to fulfil their avaricious fantasies. The route to our own fulfilment is nothing more than a carrot-on-stick pursuit of material wealth in an endless exercise of consumption and planned obsolescence at unimagined environmental and human cost, yet of course to the tremendous gain of the rapacious capitalist classes.
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zhog
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(Original post by Captain Haddock)
*******s. We work longer hours producing more than ever before in return for stagnant wages and a morbid diet of workplace stress and anxiety. We then allay those anxieties by dutifully observing the capitalist sacrament of consumption, hoodwinked by marketers and advertisers into believing their products will make us happier, slimmer, smarter, richer... We are thus blessed with an illusory sense of agency in a world where the means of production and our own birthright, the Earth itself, have been misappropriated by a covetous elite to fulfil their avaricious fantasies. The route to our own fulfilment is nothing more than a carrot-on-stick pursuit of material wealth in an endless exercise of consumption and planned obsolescence at unimagined environmental and human cost, yet of course to the tremendous gain of the rapacious capitalist classes.
Bless, weren't it for capitalism and everything would be so much better. No more stress or anxiety in the workplace, wages would travel in one direction only. With little to consume, we'd be free to do whatever we liked with the spare time. Your coveted share of the planet would be fulfilled somehow by someone else and you'd be free to live the life you're entitled to at last by birthright. Sweet dreams, Captain.
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