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Tories demand list of Brexit teachers... Watch

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    (Original post by Davij038)
    When it comes to facts about Isis or slavery or whatever of course they have to be impartial. It’s the commitment to finding the truth, however unpalatable. That’s the whole point.
    Moral judgements are different to factual judgements.


    Faith schools are independent- so should they be able to teach creationism?
    There is no suggestion that Universities would be factually inaccurate in their teachings about Brexit. They will be opinionated of course, but that's the nature of universities. Students are meant to challenge tutors and come up with their own opinions.

    It's not for the Tories to start intimidating universities because they don't like their teachings. Short of encouraging or defending crime/ terrorism, universities should be allowed to teach what they want how they deem appropriate.

    I would suggest that the rules should be different in mandatory education compared to voluntary higher education.
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    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    I dont think you understand impartial,

    Impartial would be going The slave trade helped Europe and America grow at a rapid rate, it had some positives and did X and Y but the negatives far outweighed the positives and here are some of the negatives.


    Lol 'impartial teaching of Brexit' - ie 'say Brexit is wonderful'.
    Once again I dont think you understand impartial, it seems for you it means the exact opposite of its true definition, when we say impartial teaching we are not asking for my viewpoints to be taken as gospel we are asking for....... Impartial teaching where the things are impartial.

    you are just using stupid examples to try and further your argument yet all you do is make yourself look stupid

    Judges are meant to be impartial but you dont see every court case ending in the judge going "I have no strong opinion either way"
    Cool.

    Universities and academics do not have to be impartial. They do not have to present an argument in a balanced manner. They must state the facts truthfully of course, but they are free to offer opinions on issues as they deem fit.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Cool.

    Universities and academics do not have to be impartial. They do not have to present an argument in a balanced manner. They must state the facts truthfully of course, but they are free to offer opinions on issues as they deem fit.
    It is fine to say "here are the pros and cons of brexit, personally I would rather X or Y" but when the teachers opinions are heavily biased and they use it to teach lies to the student that is wrong
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    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    It is fine to say "here are the pros and cons of brexit, personally I would rather X or Y" but when the teachers opinions are heavily biased and they use it to teach lies to the student that is wrong
    They aren't telling lies and there's no suggestion that they are or have intention to.

    They can teach Brexit and make clear that in their opinion it's an awful decision, just as they can teach it and argue it's a great decision.

    That's the nature of academia and Universities. People can take whichever opinion they wish.

    Yet the Tories are complaining because they don't like how academics are teaching their courses, to people who've voluntarily signed up for their courses.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    No, you are not, if you mean question by a media or political campaign. Higher education has been carved out as a space in which ideas are to be floated free from the political arena. Limitations on that freedom, promoting terrorism for example, are to be narrowly circumscribed. So important is that, that only this year Parliament has imposed a duty on the higher education regulator to ensure that academic freedom is not curtailed.

    One academic is entitled to question another. Students are entitled to question their tutors but anything in the nature of a campaign by other academics, by students or by others against the views of an academic or group of academics is to be regarded as illegitimate.

    Those are the rules of debate that our democracy has established. You may criticise those rules but that should be a criticism directed to those politicians who have made the rules, not those academics who operate within them. You are not allowed to say; "the government has prohibited me from shouting down my opponent, but I don't agree with those rules and that entitles me to shout down my opponent."
    That's not what I'm saying though is it? I'm trying to say it's clearly counterproductive and "neo-fascist" if we value academic freedom but we don't value the freedom to criticise.
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    How do you know they are not telling lies, I know some of my teachers tell lies (not that my experience means much) and at a lot of universities free speech is being attacked by the left and this is very clear.
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    (Original post by CoffeeGeek)
    That's not what I'm saying though is it? I'm trying to say it's clearly counterproductive and "neo-fascist" if we value academic freedom but we don't value the freedom to criticise.
    Freedom to criticise? Yes. National government intimidation of academics? No.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    To be fair, it would be a very restricted free country if only registered university academics or students were free to critique the work of other academics - surely that should be an acceptable part of public discourse. The issue here is not the abstract right to criticise but rather what looked like a deliberate attempt by government (or a political faction within government in this case) to intimidate the freedom of university academics to hold views.

    I think the most unpleasant aspect is the sneaky way this MP used his own stationery and made the request seem superficially routine whilst at the same time being on the government payroll with obvious implications. This is a man who at best might be described as 'creepy'.
    You may see everything as a government conspiracy but this probably wasn't. One would hope the government collectively has more political nous.

    The point is that this was equally unacceptable regardless of whether he was he was in government. The letter would have been no more acceptable if signed John Redwood MP or Nigel Farage MEP.

    Someone doesn't have to have a permit to criticise an academic but rather organised criticism is out of bounds. Academics are not to be pilloried in the press, lambasted in Parliament or picketed by agitators. They are only to be subjected to what they dish out.
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    (Original post by CoffeeGeek)
    That's not what I'm saying though is it? I'm trying to say it's clearly counterproductive and "neo-fascist" if we value academic freedom but we don't value the freedom to criticise.
    We set rules of debate. You don't have the freedom to persuade a worker not to work by "watching and besetting" his house. You may not speak twice on the same motion in the Commons. You may not use amplification to shout down a speaker at Speakers' Corner.

    What I am saying if that you may not organise a claque in opposition to academics holding particular opinions.
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    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    How do you know they are not telling lies, I know some of my teachers tell lies (not that my experience means much) and at a lot of universities free speech is being attacked by the left and this is very clear.
    Yes, free speech is being attacked by the left which makes it all the more crass that this Tory MP should give aid and comfort to the Trots by undertaking this witch hunt against academics.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    Yes, free speech is being attacked by the left which makes it all the more crass that this Tory MP should give aid and comfort to the Trots by undertaking this witch hunt against academics.
    So he ASKED for a list of acedemics and what they were teaching, it does not seem to be an attack, he just wants to see how brexit and other simmilar things are being taught, I am sure if he wanted to he could find out anyway.

    Asking to see what they are teaching and actually stopping them from teaching is a massive difference
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    You may see everything as a government conspiracy but this probably wasn't. One would hope the government collectively has more political nous.
    We have two governments, the pro-Brexit Tories and the neutral/anti-Brexit Tories. This was an action of the pro-Brexit hardline Tories. It was also quite obviously pre-planned to get a reaction from the universities, the Guardian, the BBC, etc, so that they (the Brexit Tory government) could go around sniping at the lies of experts, etc. The next step (already happening) will be a series of assaults on the BBC.

    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    The point is that this was equally unacceptable regardless of whether he was he was in government. The letter would have been no more acceptable if signed John Redwood MP or Nigel Farage MEP.
    Maybe not - an MP can send letters asking questions to any public body. The obvious threat here was that he is in government and he and his fellow conspirators knew that perfectly well when they planned this little action.
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    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    So he ASKED for a list of acedemics and what they were teaching, it does not seem to be an attack, he just wants to see how brexit and other simmilar things are being taught, I am sure if he wanted to he could find out anyway.

    Asking to see what they are teaching and actually stopping them from teaching is a massive difference
    I’m anti- Tory but I do think we need to know what teachers support. Any who are pro-EU should be offered a course, counselling, or some other other help if they wish to remain in teaching. The head of my last school still continues to display an EU flag in the main corridor of EU achievements. He should be sacked.
    You can’t have teachers with unsavoury inappropriate thoughts teaching our kids.

    Britain can be a great power after Brexit and strongly lead our commonwealth. But that requires discipline at home. All EU thought needs to be exorcised out and that begins in schools. And that we strongly encourage Brits to spend their money in Britain rather than Europe.

    If we want countries like Australia to be more cooperative with Britain then we need to be united.
 
 
 
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