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    As mentioned a number of times in the other thread on a similar topic: Foundation Years (eg LMH) may well be a key way to help the situation.

    And to the point that the 3% Black British application share at Oxbridge is in line with the 3% national demographic, I'd be interested to see if their POLAR profile was also in line. I have a sneaking suspicion it might be Q4 & Q5. Or have a higher proportion of private schools. I have no data... just a hunch.

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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Isn't the problem though that access initiatives are not working? Or at least, not so far particularly well, most especially in two areas - students from afro-caribbean backgrounds and students from schools and parts of the country that do not have a history of Oxbridge admission?
    In the last Census in 2011, the country was ethnically:86% white and 3% black. In the admission statistics for Cambridge in 2016, around 3% of applicants were black which seems to be reasonable given their representation in the population as a whole. So I don't understand your point that access initiatives are not working in that respect.
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    In the last Census in 2011, the country was ethnically:86% white and 3% black. In the admission statistics for Cambridge in 2016, around 3% of applicants were black which seems to be reasonable given their representation in the population as a whole. So I don't understand your point that access initiatives are not working in that respect.
    Was that 3% of UK applicants, or 3% globally?
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Was that 3% of UK applicants, or 3% globally?
    Home applicants. See my comment #61...

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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    "There's no penalties from OFFA for missing targets "

    Well, there is clearly provision for financial penalties:


    There are two sanctions open to us if a university or college seriously and wilfully breaches its access agreement. We can:
    • direct the Higher Education Funding Council for England or the Teaching Agency to deduct a fine from the university or college’s grant or suspend part of its grant until it has put matters right
    • refuse to renew the university’s or college’s access agreement, thereby preventing it from charging full-time undergraduate students tuition fees above the standard level for a period after its access agreement has expired.



    Source: https://www.offa.org.uk/press/freque...ons/#sanctions
    They *can* penalise universities - but 39% of targets were missed and no university was fined or had their Access Agreement refused.

    It's a toothless threat and universities know that. It's like this lot http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news...roken-12975706 noone lives in fear of being fined for their house alarm going off, universities aren't scared of the financial penalties from OFFA (the reputation damage from bad press if they aren't seen to be doing the right thing is another matter - but that's the press and public image NOT a government imposed penalty).
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    As mentioned a number of times in the other thread on a similar topic: Foundation Years (eg LMH) may well be a key way to help the situation.

    And to the point that the 3% Black British application share at Oxbridge is in line with the 3% national demographic, I'd be interested to see if their POLAR profile was also in line. I have a sneaking suspicion it might be Q4 & Q5. Or have a higher proportion of private schools. I have no data... just a hunch.

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    I think 3% is the global, not the UK application rate.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Isn't the problem though that access initiatives are not working? Or at least, not so far particularly well, most especially in two areas - students from afro-caribbean backgrounds and students from schools and parts of the country that do not have a history of Oxbridge admission?
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    - admissions processes, like it or not, persistently succeed in filtering out students from less privileged backgrounds.

    The latter in particular is not just an Oxbridge phenomenon - it applies across the RG - but it is a real phenomenon and not some fantasy.
    You haven't actually provided an explanation for that though. You seem to imply that it's unfair, but don't provide evidence to show that.

    Oxbridge claims to admit on the basis of academic ability and potential. Do you have any evidence that this is not the case for certain groups?
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Home applicants. See my comment #61...

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    Oh OK - ignore my next post then, our posts crossed.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I think 3% is the global, not the UK application rate.
    No it isnt.

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    (Original post by RogerOxon)
    You haven't actually provided an explanation for that though. You seem to imply that it's unfair, but don't provide evidence to show that.

    Oxbridge claims to admit on the basis of academic ability and potential. Do you have any evidence that this is not the case for certain groups?
    Sorry, are we talking about quotas here? Quotas would inevitably mean sufficient lowering of perceived standards (they are never as objective as claimed) to meet the quota.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Oh OK - ignore my next post then, our posts crossed.
    Too late

    But it was worth posting the stats anyway.

    And here's POLAR3 and OAC flag.
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    These are for the better place obviously. But O*ford is similar tbf.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    hehe. Other than a few tens of millions of pounds and a few acres of real estate. Perhaps Gap College might be an appropriate start for such an initiative, or River Island Hall, or maybe Next College. Presumably FCUK wouldn't be acceptable.
    or they could open a whole new campus... & call it
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Home applicants. See my comment #61...

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    And to be clear, it was applicants and not actual places? What was the figure for accepted black students from UK as a percentage?
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    And to be clear, it was applicants and not actual places? What was the figure for accepted black students from UK as a percentage?
    The data is above, note, though, that BMEs (and POLAR3 Q1 & Q2) generally apply for competitive courses (Medicine, Engineering, etc) not MML or Classics so you can expect Offer and Acceptance rates to be lower than "average".
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Sorry, are we talking about quotas here? Quotas would inevitably mean sufficient lowering of perceived standards (they are never as objective as claimed) to meet the quota.
    You claimed that the Oxbridge admissions processes "persistently succeed in filtering out students from less privileged backgrounds" . I was challenging you to demonstrate that this occurs (if it does) because of bias in those processes, rather than from a fair assessment of academic ability and potential.
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    (Original post by RogerOxon)
    I really hate the term 'positive discrimination'. Discrimination is never positive IMO, and should not be legal.

    IMO, Oxbridge bends over backwards to give everyone a fair admissions assessment - doing much more than universities that go purely on the UCAS form. They should not be forced to lower standards because the state education system fails some.
    "I really hate the term 'positive discrimination'. Discrimination is never positive IMO, and should not be legal."

    Positive discrimination is now illegal. Positive action is legal:

    https://www.york.ac.uk/admin/eo/Posi...0Guide%201.pdf

    If you are faced with two candidates and one is more suitable for the position than the other. If the employer selects the less suitable candidate purely because they have a protected characteristic then that's positive discrimination and illegal.

    If you are faced with two candidates and they are equally qualified to do the job (important to note that they do not have to be equal just equally qualified in terms of what is needed to do the particular job) then you can use positive action to select the protected characteristic candidate (even though they may offer less experience etc) to meet the firm's diversity targets. Selecting the protected characteristic candidate (with less experience)would not be seen as discrimination.

    Quite simple really
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    And to be clear, it was applicants and not actual places? What was the figure for accepted black students from UK as a percentage?
    UCAS have these stats available covering the last few years (including a difference to offer rates adjusted to allow for predicted grades)
    https://www.ucas.com/file/90201/download?token=uC_T4bSP Cambridge
    https://www.ucas.com/file/90631/download?token=j0qJTSzb Oxford

    (all UK universities https://www.ucas.com/corporate/data-...d-ethnic-group)

    Ethnicity charts are on page 10 - there's a lower than average offer rate for black applicants to Cambridge but once predicted grades are adjusted for the offer rate is as UCAS would expect....there's a whole other story about over and under predicted grades.

    Accepted black applicants to Cambridge in 2016 (p8) 35 (1.6% of 18 yr old placed applicants) and Oxford 25 (1.1% of 18yr old placed applicants).

    The analysis is potentially skewed by the focus on 18 yr olds (but that's because the factoring for predicted grades isn't possible for post results applicants)
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I think 3% is the global, not the UK application rate.
    No it's for home applicants only.

    In the admissions statistics 2016 on the website.
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    (Original post by PQ)
    Accepted black applicants to Cambridge in 2016 (p8) 35 (1.6% of 18 yr old placed applicants) and Oxford 25 (1.1% of 18yr old placed applicants).
    Ideally it needs to be by course for the reason I gave earlier.
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    (Original post by PQ)
    UCAS have these stats available covering the last few years (including a difference to offer rates adjusted to allow for predicted grades)
    https://www.ucas.com/file/90201/download?token=uC_T4bSP Cambridge
    https://www.ucas.com/file/90631/download?token=j0qJTSzb Oxford

    (all UK universities https://www.ucas.com/corporate/data-...d-ethnic-group)

    Ethnicity charts are on page 10 - there's a lower than average offer rate for black applicants to Cambridge but once predicted grades are adjusted for the offer rate is as UCAS would expect....there's a whole other story about over and under predicted grades.

    Accepted black applicants to Cambridge in 2016 (p8) 35 (1.6% of 18 yr old placed applicants) and Oxford 25 (1.1% of 18yr old placed applicants).

    The analysis is potentially skewed by the focus on 18 yr olds (but that's because the factoring for predicted grades isn't possible for post results applicants)
    On the Cambridge website admission statistics for home applicants 2016, it shows 3% of applicants were black; 1.7% received Offers and 1.5 % made those Offers.
 
 
 
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