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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    Positive discrimination is now illegal. Positive action is legal:
    I wasn't talking just about the UK.

    If you are faced with two candidates and one is more suitable for the position than the other. If the employer selects the less suitable candidate purely because they have a protected characteristic then that's positive discrimination and illegal.

    If you are faced with two candidates and they are equally qualified to do the job (important to note that they do not have to be equal just equally qualified in terms of what is needed to do the particular job) then you can use positive action to select the protected characteristic candidate (even though they may offer less experience etc) to meet the firm's diversity targets. Selecting the protected characteristic candidate (with less experience)would not be seen as discrimination.
    That does sound like weasel words. Two candidates will never be exactly equal. Allowing a 'protected characteristic candidate' (I don't see how that can be defined without discrimination) to decide is obviously discrimination by another name.
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    On the Cambridge website admission statistics for home applicants 2016, it shows 3% of applicants were black; 1.7% received Offers and 1.5 % made those Offers.
    That's nice.

    The data I linked to covers Cambridge, Oxford and every other UK university and uses the same methodology across all of them. It also adjusts for predicted grades and so restricts the population to 18 yr olds.

    (and I think you're misrepresenting the percentages with your wording there 1.7% of black applicants didn't receive offers (18% of them did), 1.7% of offer holders were black, likewise 1.5% of those who were placed were black (not 1.5% of black applicants were placed - 13% of black applicants were placed)).
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    On the Cambridge website admission statistics for home applicants 2016, it shows 3% of applicants were black; 1.7% received Offers and 1.5 % made those Offers.
    The stats are all in the thread above you...

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    (Original post by RogerOxon)
    I wasn't talking just about the UK.


    That does sound like weasel words. Two candidates will never be exactly equal. Allowing a 'protected characteristic candidate' (I don't see how that can be defined without discrimination) to decide is obviously discrimination by another name.
    "Allowing a 'protected characteristic candidate' (I don't see how that can be defined without discrimination) to decide is obviously discrimination by another name. "

    Well, it's all quite simple really, you just have to remember that equality does not mean treating everybody equally.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    The stats are all in the thread above you...

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    Thank you - much easier
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Ideally it needs to be by course for the reason I gave earlier.
    Do you think that maybe the more popular and competitive courses should be expanded?
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    (Original post by PQ)
    That's nice.

    The data I linked to covers Cambridge, Oxford and every other UK university and uses the same methodology across all of them. It also adjusts for predicted grades and so restricts the population to 18 yr olds.

    (and I think you're misrepresenting the percentages with your wording there 1.7% of black applicants didn't receive offers (18% of them did), 1.7% of offer holders were black, likewise 1.5% of those who were placed were black (not 1.5% of black applicants were placed - 13% of black applicants were placed)).
    We were talking about access initiatives and whether they were getting black students to apply so I was quoting their percentages from overall applications, offers etc. compared with their percentage of the population in 2011 Census (couldn't find any more recent data from ONS).

    And you're absolutely right to point out that of those who applied 18% received Offers and 13% of those who applied got in.
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    (Original post by black1blade)
    Do you think that maybe the more popular and competitive courses should be expanded?
    They are already large courses so there's probably space/resource limitations, but I imagine there's a long term strategy to do that (e.g. Engineering is gradually moving to West Cambridge in the medium term).
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    I'm unsure about the idea of quotas, but one thing I am sure about is that it should not be based on whether one attends a state school or a private school, but instead based on income, as many private school students receive bursaries to attend their school, but their families still belong to the lower/middle classes. Therefore, if Oxbridge begins to introduce quotas for state school students, it would be wildly unfair to bursary students from private schools, who have still been limited by their parent's income. At the same time, I do appreciate how many state school students do not receive the same quality of education as a child attending a private school would, so bursary students do have an advantage over a state school student.
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    We were talking about access initiatives and whether they were getting black students to apply so I was quoting their percentages from overall applications, offers etc. compared with their percentage of the population in 2011 Census (couldn't find any more recent data from ONS).

    And you're absolutely right to point out that of those who applied 18% received Offers and 13% of those who applied got in.
    Quotas would be measured against intake not against applicants.
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    (Original post by bunnisuh)
    I'm unsure about the idea of quotas, but one thing I am sure about is that it should not be based on whether one attends a state school or a private school, but instead based on income, as many private school students receive bursaries to attend their school, but their families still belong to the lower/middle classes. Therefore, if Oxbridge begins to introduce quotas for state school students, it would be wildly unfair to bursary students from private schools, who have still been limited by their parent's income. At the same time, I do appreciate how many state school students do not receive the same quality of education as a child attending a private school would, so bursary students do have an advantage over a state school student.
    But the thing is how much money you have doesn't really matter tbh, the quality of teaching, size of classes and average ability level of those classes is more important.
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    (Original post by PQ)
    Quotas would be measured against intake not against applicants.
    I even think existing access agreement targets are wrong, let alone introducing quotas. I think the state private school measure is too crude and the POLAR targets open to abuse.

    They should just make the admissions system more open to independent scrutiny; keep all records and have spot checks to ensure that all offers are being made fairly with regard only to academic ability regardless of race, religion, gender or anything else.
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    offers are being made fairly with regard only to academic ability regardless of race, religion, gender or anything else.
    So the context of an application doesn't matter?
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    As mentioned a number of times in the other thread on a similar topic: Foundation Years (eg LMH) may well be a key way to help the situation.

    And to the point that the 3% Black British application share at Oxbridge is in line with the 3% national demographic, I'd be interested to see if their POLAR profile was also in line. I have a sneaking suspicion it might be Q4 & Q5. Or have a higher proportion of private schools. I have no data... just a hunch.

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    I think your hunch would be right.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    So the context of an application doesn't matter?
    In my opinion, for the most part no. And the reason is because there are so many variables to a person's life and circumstances that you cannot possibly take them all into account: everyone has a cross to bear when you dig a bit deeper. Illness and a disability such as blindness should be taken into account, but not some sob story about hardship which cannot even be verified anyway.

    If the Government wants to see more lower income students getting into Oxbridge, then they need to create more Mossbourne Academies not introduce targets and quotas for the universities. The model that worked at Mossbourne should be rolled out across the UK in failing schools.

    And I have now learned that in 2011, before the advent of access agreements and all this emphasis on outreach, 85-90% of access funds at Oxbridge were used for bursaries and scholarships: that's money going straight to students who needed it most. Now that money is being spent on outreach activities, and so often going straight to private companies involved in the provision of outreach activities. It's scandalous.
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    and so often going straight to private companies involved in the provision of outreach activities. It's scandalous.
    Such as? And how much?
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    (Original post by artful_lounger)
    The problem with quotas is that they don't address the root cause of the inequity in admissions which is the systemic barriers to achievement placed before students from low socioeconomic backgrounds and minority ethnic backgrounds. By the very structure of "modern society" such students are unable to move into more affluent areas with "better" schools due to the extreme limitations on their parents working conditions, and thus consistently have lower attainment regardless of individual ability - and so are less prepared for and thus less able to complete the degree programmes in question.

    This is clearly beyond the students' control, but until universities leverage their political power to force politicians to acknowledge the issues and implement policy to remove these barriers, the problem will remain - no matter how many quotas, Oxbridge interview technique sessions, funded open day attendances and university rep visits to lower performing schools they put in place. It is a policy issues that needs to be addressed by politicians, not foisted off as the fault of the universities who are otherwise powerless (beyond the aforementioned political power - particularly Oxbridge given it's many alumni in that area) to make any long term change.

    :congrats::congrats::congrats:
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    hehe. Other than a few tens of millions of pounds and a few acres of real estate. Perhaps Gap College might be an appropriate start for such an initiative, or River Island Hall, or maybe Next College. Presumably FCUK wouldn't be acceptable.
    Why not, bearing in mind there is already:-

    Morris Motors College Oxford
    Great Universal Stores College Oxford
    Great Universal Stores College Cambridge
    Geneva Technology College Cambridge
    Robinson Rentals College Cambridge
    Warner Music Centre for Government Oxford
    Templeton Growth Fund College Oxford?

    Then of course there is the Assad-Saud Aerospace Business School
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    (Original post by artful_lounger)
    You literally have made about 20 comments on another thread espousing offensive ideas and commentary, some of which have actually been removed by moderators due to the offensive nature of the commentary.

    My intention is to defend those from abuse and being intolerant of intolerance is the first step towards that.
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    with regard only to academic ability regardless of race, religion, gender or anything else.
    So how do we measure academic ability?

    How do we control for differential quality (and quantity) of teaching?

    How do we control for differential opportunity to participate in learning activities?
 
 
 
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