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"Bring on Oxbridge quotas" Watch

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    (Original post by black1blade)
    To be fair the multiple choice aren't super trivial and you have to be v quick if you wanna answe them all.
    it's not the difficulty that concerns me, it's the lack of nuance. That someone who does the question essentially correctly but makes a small slip scores the same as someone who had no clue doesn't sit well with me.

    MC tests also encourage "training for the test" rather than to actually get better at the subject. Lots of MC-specific tricks that don't help if you don't have a list of possible answers in front of you.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Ok, but you should use it to ask any questions or for advice. There's lots of *very* experienced people in the Maths Study Help forum
    In fact, at least one of the maths admissions tutors reads (+ sometimes responds to) the thread.
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    (Original post by DFranklin)
    In fact, at least one of the maths admissions tutors reads (+ sometimes responds to) the thread.
    And you
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    I rather regard this as confirming what I said.

    You use the example of Mossbourne Academy rather than Eton but the point is he same. How do you measure the ability of a student in a sink school in Hull relative to a student being educated by the best teachers money can buy at Eton or the best teachers Mossbourne Academy can attract to work in one of the world's great cities?
    I used the example of Mossbourne Academy because it is a state school with the same funding as other state schools. It's also in a deprived area and it is one of the top schools in the country now. However, in the 1990's, its forerunner the Hackney Downs School, was described by the then Conservative government as the 'worst school in Britain'. If Mossbourne can do it; then any school can do it.

    Quite frankly, the scandal is that there is such disparity in the education provision from one school to another. Once you get a formula that works, then you should roll it out across the country: just like Tesco. The scandal is that those attending the 'sink school in Hull' are not being provided with a Mossbourne Academy. Why isn't David Lammy, from his position of influence, campaigning for that? They should be setting targets for ALL state schools to match the excellence of Mossbourne (as many already do).

    I say they should but of course they are not. Instead, leading universities are harangued about meeting ethnic or POLAR3 targets; Bristol University is saying they'll drop their offer by two grades for applicants from failing schools and I see from Cambridge's latest access agreement, it has even been suggested that Cambridge start establishing and running schools to compensate for the government's failure. NO!!! The Government should just do its job and let the universities do theirs.

    How do you measure the ability of a student in a sink school in Hull? You measure it like every other applicant according to their proven academic performance to date and performance in academic assessment tests. You cannot corrupt the admission system for top universities because of the failure of our state education system.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    true, this situation is a scandal

    both football and F1 should be regulated by strict quotas imposed on the basis of socio-economic background and racial origin : not only, but also skiing, ice-hockey and darts, areas where white privilege is omnipresent (not to mention that both snow and ice are white, which in itself is unjustifiable...)

    best
    "(not to mention that both snow and ice are white, which in itself is unjustifiable...) "

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    (Original post by mariachi)
    not to mention that both snow and ice are white, which in itself is unjustifiable...
    You forgot to mention the truly shocking (and obviously not accidental) symbolism of black tarmac being driven over in a violent manner by white drivers in F1.
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    I used the example of Mossbourne Academy because it is a state school with the same funding as other state schools. It's also in a deprived area and it is one of the top schools in the country now. However, in the 1990's, its forerunner the Hackney Downs School, was described by the then Conservative government as the 'worst school in Britain'. If Mossbourne can do it; then any school can do it.
    You might find the following interesting reading; it seems a little slanted towards being critical but not ridiculously so.

    https://disidealist.wordpress.com/20...el-for-us-all/
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    You forgot to mention the truly shocking (and obviously not accidental) symbolism of black tarmac being driven over in a violent manner by white drivers in F1.
    Love it.

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    (Original post by DFranklin)
    You might find the following interesting reading; it seems a little slanted towards being critical but not ridiculously so.

    https://disidealist.wordpress.com/20...el-for-us-all/
    What a mean-spirited and jealous rant!

    Get something of excellence and do your utmost to put it down. Of course Mossbourne is oversubscribed and a lot of academically bright children or middle class children now want to go there.

    They'd all want to get into the Mossbourne Academy if it was in Hull given half the chance too, but instead because of people with a mentality like the author, they'll have to make do with the current Sink School in Hull.
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    What a mean-spirited and jealous rant!

    Get something of excellence and do your utmost to put it down. Of course Mossbourne is oversubscribed and a lot of academically bright children or middle class children now want to go there.

    They'd all want to get into the Mossbourne Academy if it was in Hull given half the chance too, but instead because of people with a mentality like the author, they'll have to make do with the current Sink School in Hull.
    Well, that was informative.
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    (Original post by DFranklin)
    You might find the following interesting reading; it seems a little slanted towards being critical but not ridiculously so.

    https://disidealist.wordpress.com/20...el-for-us-all/
    Nice find. I had a feeling money had something to do with it.

    tl;dr...

    The summary: "It is a neat trick : pour huge amounts of cash into one exemplar school, helping it to push up results; obfuscate this fact with superficial fripperies and a loud-mouthed egomaniac headteacher; then cut budgets to other schools, while telling them that money is irrelevant, as the results are all about “proper” uniforms, academy status and high expectations. Another triumph of evidence-based policy-making."
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    What a mean-spirited and jealous rant!

    Get something of excellence and do your utmost to put it down. Of course Mossbourne is oversubscribed and a lot of academically bright children or middle class children now want to go there.

    They'd all want to get into the Mossbourne Academy if it was in Hull given half the chance too, but instead because of people with a mentality like the author, they'll have to make do with the current Sink School in Hull.
    Did you miss the bit about having a higher per capita budget?
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    The summary: "It is a neat trick : pour huge amounts of cash into one exemplar school, helping it to push up results; obfuscate this fact with superficial fripperies and a loud-mouthed egomaniac headteacher; then cut budgets to other schools, while telling them that money is irrelevant, as the results are all about “proper” uniforms, academy status and high expectations. Another triumph of evidence-based policy-making."
    Plus the (apparent) selection. Anecdotally, the (few, I admit) private school teachers I know will generally agree "the school isn't the big difference, it's the intake and the amount of parental support".
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    The problem is that running exams in itself operates as a deterrent to schools. in the other thread I listed the four papers I wrote for the Oxford entrance exam which involved over 10 hours of invigilation. Once that had been lost as an expectation on schools, it is difficult to get it back.

    Various entrance tests are using Pearson's network of driving test centres because of the difficulty of offering them through schools but that constrains the nature of the examination.

    I don't know whether you have seen this

    http://www.admissionstestingservice....ity-admission/

    but very few centres seem to be offering it.
    I had not seen it, it is along the right lines.

    I had more thought along the lines of Oxford and Cambridge running in house such exams themselves, though appreciate it would involve cost and travel re applicants attending plus vast amounts of the university's time.

    I see no easy solutions, but as school exam success continues to be more and more coached there does come the point where they are devalued territory.

    In my day far fewer people got As in everything (in my sister's year there were just two, her and one other), my highers, BBBBC, would now never get me into Edinburgh, but back in the 1970s they did and I suspect I was in the top 25% in my school re these results and it was a pretty good private school, nationally in Scotland I was probably near top 10% re exam results for that year (1977)

    Higher flyers were easier to spot, there were far fewer, same now with degree classifications, the percentage achieving a 2:1 or better was far smaller (maybe 20-25%)

    Of course even this approach was poor, exam success alone can be a pretty poor indicator re ability, it was merely what was available, now I think all universities, not just Oxford and Cambridge, need to take a long look at admissions criteria and reinvent the wheel.
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    (Original post by DJKL)

    Of course even this approach was poor, exam success alone can be a pretty poor indicator re ability, it was merely what was available, now I think all universities, not just Oxford and Cambridge, need to take a long look at admissions criteria and reinvent the wheel.
    I think admissions quotas appeal to those who take a Marxist approach to matters Fullofsurprises ; who see academics looking after their own through the admissions process. Quotas negate that. I accept the bona fides of academics; that for the most part they are genuinely trying to select the most able.

    George Bernard Shaw intended his aphorism that "justice is like the doors of the Ritz Hotel, open to all" to be ironic. In the case of university admissions, some AllonsEnfants! believe it to be a simple statement of the truth.

    I think any totally objective admissions system will be gamed by the sharp elbowed. My view is that quotas should be used to increase the size of the pool, not who is fished from the pool.

    If you say A*BB is acceptable for admissions, then every Wykehamist with those grades will apply. If you say that A*BB will be acceptable for kids from Bash Street Comp only, then you might well get kids predicted to get A*BB applying from Bash Street Comp without being swamped by the mediocre of Winchester. You can then interview the comp kids alongside the Wykehamists with straight A* predictions. The corollary to this is that there is no point in giving everyone the same conditional offer,if that offer is out of reach for people identified as having the requisite ability.

    I used the example of A*BB because i think this one of the evils of the UCAS process. The key to admission for any competitive course is a candidate's weakest subject and that is one of the advantages of the teaching at the best schools. They get people with only moderate talent good grades. "I'm sorry Mr Shakespeare, we can't admit you to our creative writing course with that E in geography. How can anyone who thinks Bohemia has a coastline possibly succeed in writing fiction? Rather than that second rate grammar school in Stratford, you should have attended Eton or even that new academy alongside Ye Mosse Bourne."
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    I used the example of Mossbourne Academy because it is a state school with the same funding as other state schools.
    You really don’t understand how academies work.
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    (Original post by AllonsEnfants!)
    Quite frankly, the scandal is that there is such disparity in the education provision from one school to another. Once you get a formula that works, then you should roll it out across the country: just like Tesco.
    You really don’t know how Tesco works either. It has had various parts of its business fail spectacularly where rolling ideas out on a national level hasn’t work consistently. The same is likely to happen if you tried to apply the same logic to education.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    I think admissions quotas appeal to those who take a Marxist approach to matters Fullofsurprises ; who see academics looking after their own through the admissions process. Quotas negate that. I accept the bona fides of academics; that for the most part they are genuinely trying to select the most able.

    George Bernard Shaw intended his aphorism that "justice is like the doors of the Ritz Hotel, open to all" to be ironic. In the case of university admissions, some AllonsEnfants! believe it to be a simple statement of the truth.

    I think any totally objective admissions system will be gamed by the sharp elbowed. My view is that quotas should be used to increase the size of the pool, not who is fished from the pool.

    If you say A*BB is acceptable for admissions, then every Wykehamist with those grades will apply. If you say that A*BB will be acceptable for kids from Bash Street Comp only, then you might well get kids predicted to get A*BB applying from Bash Street Comp without being swamped by the mediocre of Winchester. You can then interview the comp kids alongside the Wykehamists with straight A* predictions. The corollary to this is that there is no point in giving everyone the same conditional offer,if that offer is out of reach for people identified as having the requisite ability.

    I used the example of A*BB because i think this one of the evils of the UCAS process. The key to admission for any competitive course is a candidate's weakest subject and that is one of the advantages of the teaching at the best schools. They get people with only moderate talent good grades. "I'm sorry Mr Shakespeare, we can't admit you to our creative writing course with that E in geography. How can anyone who thinks Bohemia has a coastline possibly succeed in writing fiction? Rather than that second rate grammar school in Stratford, you should have attended Eton or even that new academy alongside Ye Mosse Bourne."
    I really don't object to being called a Marxist, because even though it's an extreme interpretation of my views here, the descendant ideas of Marx and the core concepts are never more in demand than now and the basic need for a replacement to capitalism never clearer.

    Meanwhile, back in the real world of access to superior education. I suspect the academics not specifically for class bias (although I think even the most ardent defender of Oxbridge might not wish to claim that the academic body is traditionally one that strongly favoured enabling working class kids to join their colleges) - but the entire system, Oxbridge, the schools and the workings of British classism at all levels and the evolved engineering of the system to relentlessly favour certain schools, the privileged classes generally and the children of specific groups such as Oxbridge graduates, Oxbridge academics and assorted high status parents.

    In short, Oxbridge is a key instrument in maintaining the class advantage of the upper middle classes and certain segments of them in particular.

    This remains basically the case, although it has somewhat broadened in the decades since the early 80s to include those youngsters who made it to a special group of highly selective schools with well known access to Oxbridge, particularly the A-list grammar schools and certain well known state schools set in privileged areas. These hardly represent a significant broadening of the class base of Oxbridge access, more a mild redefinition of what is acceptably Oxbridge-friendly to incorporate previously somewhat limited elements of the highly educated middle class who traditionally had no chance at all of access, or very little, due either to lack of cash or else location in provincial areas outside (especially) posh London, Surrey, Herts and Bucks, Oxon, Cambs and the core counties that once wholly defined Oxbridge access and now only mainly do.

    The point of quotas is their deployment in situations where the entire system is devoted to a particular narrow outcome, which there can be little doubt is the case here. They are a blunt instrument to hack away at a stubborn and rigid obstruction. The quota is a big beast - release it and will do the work of ten lesser animals. Red in tooth and claw, impartial, benevolent and terrifying - to the over-privileged and the over-indulged by society.

    A rigid quota (to start with) of 60% state school access, rigid regional quotas and rigid limitation quotas set on the 'stellar' schools - from Westminster to Manchester Grammar and from Hills Rd to Clifton College (there would be howls of anguish from the upper middles across Britain - something to be pleased at, a sure sign that the policy would be working) as a percentage of total access - would be a useful start. A quota for UK-based BAME students would also be a good idea. I can almost hear the screams from the Telegraph and the Mail as I type.

    The quotas could last for 10 years whilst the educational system attempts to reorganise itself on behalf of the upper middles to game the system so that their privilege is restored. At that point, new rules would be established to undermine whatever their latest trickery would have installed.

    The result would be (20-30 years from commencement) a new class of prestigious, meritocratic, highly achieving people of all class backgrounds taking genuine leadership and not the highly distorted, even weird, version all too often dished up at present - see the current Tory government for multiple examples.

    Oh and Shakespeare would (under my quota system and improved admission procedures) have rightly been rejected at the entrance as an imposter and stand in for the real author, Sir Henry Neville - who also (rightly) would be denied a place due to downranking after his privileged access to school in Waltham St Lawrence, Berks - far from attending Merton, he would have had to make do with studying English at Southampton. And a jolly good thing too.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Oh and Shakespeare would (under my quota system and improved admission procedures) have rightly been rejected at the entrance as an imposter and stand in for the real author, Sir Henry Neville - who also (rightly) would be denied a place due to downranking after his privileged access to school in Waltham St Lawrence, Berks - far from attending Merton, he would have had to make do with studying English at Southampton. And a jolly good thing too.
    but Shakey did not go to yoony tho' ?

    :dontknow:
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    (Original post by the bear)
    but Shakey did not go to yoony tho' ?

    :dontknow:
    I know Bear. I was imagining him approaching my quota-managed Oxbridge in a flight of post-truthian fancy. In his favour would be some promising poetry and a criminal record for deer poaching, plus a Dad in financial trouble. Against would be an A-list grammar and a tendency to accept cash to put his name on other people's work.
 
 
 
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