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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    The mother's life is important, but so is the baby's!
    You make some good points. However I would like to make a few points if I may?

    I think the issue of abortion surrounds what people believe. Biology is a science. We don't need to believe anything. So let's stick to hard facts. An embryo up to a certain point is no more living than the hair, toe clippings and skin we discard on a daily basis. But there is a point at which an embryo turns into a living entity. That point is definitely up for debate.

    I live on the same road as an abortion clinic. Each week hundreds of women come and go. What is the solution from the anti abortion camp for all of those unwanted children? Our social services are already overstretched as it is. Do we really have a place in our society in its current state for babies and children who will grow up unwanted and unloved?

    The final question regards those women who would seek illegal abortions at any cost. Those with wealth would go abroad as currently happens in Ireland but let us not forget the women who frequently died as the result of back-street abortionists who used such basic implements as knitting needles and worse!

    For me, the current law strikes a fair compromise. We are not killing babies that we would recognise as babies whilst at the same time we are providing women a way out of a sutuation that would otherwise make or break some mothers-to-be.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    The mother's life is important, but so is the baby's!
    Yes the baby's future is important, but have you thought what might actually happen to the baby? Perhaps, it will be left in an adoption centre, where thousands of other babies are also waiting for someone to give them love. Would the baby have a good quality of life? What about the mother - if she was incapable of caring for a baby, too young, not ready - what would the implications be for both, and her family? If both the mother and baby would live a low quality of life, but the mother could have a bright future without the child, would it be worth?

    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Those who support abortion in most or all circumstances have already been born. Imagine being denied life because "times are hard".
    If my mother was under a circumstance where her physical and emotional health were at risk, then I would rather have been denied life. I cannot imagine my mother having to go through constant stress because of an unplanned pregnancy. She deserves much more than that.

    (Original post by Anonymous)
    why have it in the first place if you know that there would be financial difficulties (yes I know contraception can break but that accounts for about 1%)
    You'd be surprised at how often contraception doesn't work and the number of unplanned pregnancies there are due to failed contraception. However, is it fair to say that the couple shouldn't have sex because it can potentially lead to an unplanned pregnancy, even after taking the precautions?

    (Original post by Anonymous)
    I just couldn't imagine doing it.
    Just because you wouldn't have an abortion, doesn't mean that other people can't have the option to!
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    Most abortions are not to first time mothers, but mothers who already have children. Now a mother may just be coping with one or two children, but that 3rd child may cause the other two to be neglected, either as the mother cannot afford that child (especially if they are on a zero hours contact/ working tax credits), or emotionally be unable to cope and not be able to give her current children the attention they need. It is an interesting debate about when life begins.
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    Personally, I think that a foetus is a human whether or not someone thinks it’s “developed”. And as for when it becomes human as soon as the egg and sperm fuse. However, no man should get a say in the child’s abortion unless the woman wants him too. The law is there to provide equality and the inequality lies that it is the woman giving birth not the man so she controls the birth.
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    *There to provide equality when there is none e.g due to biology.
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    • #1
    #1

    (Original post by ByEeek)
    You make some good points. However I would like to make a few points if I may?

    I think the issue of abortion surrounds what people believe. Biology is a science. We don't need to believe anything. So let's stick to hard facts. An embryo up to a certain point is no more living than the hair, toe clippings and skin we discard on a daily basis. But there is a point at which an embryo turns into a living entity. That point is definitely up for debate.

    I live on the same road as an abortion clinic. Each week hundreds of women come and go. What is the solution from the anti abortion camp for all of those unwanted children? Our social services are already overstretched as it is. Do we really have a place in our society in its current state for babies and children who will grow up unwanted and unloved?

    The final question regards those women who would seek illegal abortions at any cost. Those with wealth would go abroad as currently happens in Ireland but let us not forget the women who frequently died as the result of back-street abortionists who used such basic implements as knitting needles and worse!

    For me, the current law strikes a fair compromise. We are not killing babies that we would recognise as babies whilst at the same time we are providing women a way out of a situation that would otherwise make or break some mothers-to-be.
    You also make some good points, however, I would like to respond...
    Maybe I need to explain why I feel life begins much earlier than a lot of people think. It is not just a bunch of tissues we're aborting. Have you heard of Kermit Gosnell, the medical doctor who was accused of murdering three infants? When these abortions were taking place, they were literally just over the 24 weeks cut off period. It was taken out as a fully formed baby and later died. If the child was out of the womb and you stuck a knife through it, you would be charged with first-degree murder and rightly so. We kill it in the womb and now it's a "fundamental human right". It's obviously not because that baby was a human and it obviously didn't have a right. Someone decided that baby's rights because they think their right to their own convenience is more important.

    Furthermore, usually in America legal abortions involve the snipping off and crushing the baby's skull, the sucking out of the brain. etc. When should you kill the baby? Never.

    At week 14, the heart starts to pump several quarts of blood through the body every day.

    How about week 15, when the baby acquires the adult's taste buds. Month 4? When the bone marrow is beginning to form. Let's go down to week's 9 and 10 when the teeth start to form. The baby can turn its head, it can frown, hiccup etc.
    Week 4? the baby is 10,000 times larger now than the fertilised egg. Sorry for the long paragraph but all this is true.

    And the abortion clinics. taxpayers spend £118 million on abortion in 2010 (Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wom...y-thought.html), spend that money on social services, giving social workers the right training with education, providing basic services for adoption and voila! I know it's not as easy as that, and I know money isn't everything, but it sure goes a long way.

    Your final point though is pretty reasonable, but hopefully changing attitudes will help with this, mothers need to know that it's not just a termination of a pregnancy; its the termination of a human life.
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      If it weren't for abortion, we'd have millions more idiots and criminals running around, because the demographics who disproportionately abort their children are the demographics who raise those kinds of people.
      • #1
      #1

      (Original post by khookie)
      Yes the baby's future is important, but have you thought what might actually happen to the baby? Perhaps, it will be left in an adoption centre, where thousands of other babies are also waiting for someone to give them love. Would the baby have a good quality of life? What about the mother - if she was incapable of caring for a baby, too young, not ready - what would the implications be for both, and her family? If both the mother and baby would live a low quality of life, but the mother could have a bright future without the child, would it be worth?



      If my mother was under a circumstance where her physical and emotional health were at risk, then I would rather have been denied life. I cannot imagine my mother having to go through constant stress because of an unplanned pregnancy. She deserves much more than that.



      You'd be surprised at how often contraception doesn't work and the number of unplanned pregnancies there are due to failed contraception. However, is it fair to say that the couple shouldn't have sex because it can potentially lead to an unplanned pregnancy, even after taking the precautions?



      Just because you wouldn't have an abortion, doesn't mean that other people can't have the option to!
      We spend £118 million on abortions in the UK (with the taxpayer's money), if we spend more money on our social services, improving lives for these children, giving them education, giving social workers help, is it that bad?

      Furthermore, are you implying that adopted children don't get love, just because they're not with their biological parents?

      Life can be hard and cruel for no reason, but life can change; not everything is black and white! At least give it chance and don't give up too easily. You may just think that I'm some sort of snobby, self-entitled, heartless thug who has a plain-sailing life, but that's not true at all. Life is difficult, but it can get better.

      And the contraception failure point, statistics show that it's not a major reason, it's a factor but there are more common reasons such as "personal choices", and "not being ready" (Souce: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/poli...reasons.html#6), this is for the USA btw, can't seem to find UK statistics so they're probably quite similar.
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      (Original post by Anonymous)
      You also make some good points, however, I would like to respond...
      Maybe I need to explain why I feel life begins much earlier than a lot of people think. It is not just a bunch of tissues we're aborting. Have you heard of Kermit Gosnell, the medical doctor who was accused of murdering three infants? When these abortions were taking place, they were literally just over the 24 weeks cut off period. It was taken out as a fully formed baby and later died. If the child was out of the womb and you stuck a knife through it, you would be charged with first-degree murder and rightly so. We kill it in the womb and now it's a "fundamental human right". It's obviously not because that baby was a human and it obviously didn't have a right. Someone decided that baby's rights because they think their right to their own convenience is more important.

      Furthermore, usually in America legal abortions involve the snipping off and crushing the baby's skull, the sucking out of the brain. etc. When should you kill the baby? Never.

      At week 14, the heart starts to pump several quarts of blood through the body every day.

      How about week 15, when the baby acquires the adult's taste buds. Month 4? When the bone marrow is beginning to form. Let's go down to week's 9 and 10 when the teeth start to form. The baby can turn its head, it can frown, hiccup etc.
      Week 4? the baby is 10,000 times larger now than the fertilised egg. Sorry for the long paragraph but all this is true.

      And the abortion clinics. taxpayers spend £118 million on abortion in 2010 (Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wom...y-thought.html), spend that money on social services, giving social workers the right training with education, providing basic services for adoption and voila! I know it's not as easy as that, and I know money isn't everything, but it sure goes a long way.

      Your final point though is pretty reasonable, but hopefully changing attitudes will help with this, mothers need to know that it's not just a termination of a pregnancy; its the termination of a human life.
      So a couple of things here. Firstly, you are still using words like "I believe". The creation of a baby is science. Complex and not fully understood, but science and science alone. There is no room for beliefs in the process despite what some might advocate.

      Secondly, comparing the US system to the UK system is irrelevant. We live in the UK under UK law and practices used in the US do not add anything to the discussion.

      Thirdly - under UK law, the termination of a pregnancy is legal up to 24 weeks. Using language like murder is neither helpful to the argument nor correct. Abortion is not murder as defined under the law.

      Fourthly, could you tell me how much it would cost social services to look after unwanted and unloved children? £118 million seems like good value for money when you stand it up against the £122 billion is costs to run the NHS.

      Finally, you still haven't really answered my question. If abortion were made illegal, what would happen to the resulting children who would be born unwanted and unloved? The solution always seems to be that we educate women, but this completely ignores the realities of the situation of those who get caught up in other's moral assertions. It is rarely folks like yourself who encounter the dilemma (and it is a dilemma) that many women face. I can tell you for free that women sit outside their cars crying their eyes out before heading to the clinic. I don't think it is a decision any woman takes likely.
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      (Original post by Questions1729)
      Your analogy is incorrect because we humans, most of us, won't consider a chicken or an egg to be significant compared to human life. Surely as humans it is incorrect to assume a point where a foetus becomes human.

      What point determines the humanisation of a foetus ?
      That depends on what you think it means to be human
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      I'm sorry but I can't even understand the pro-life side to the debate, at all. Making abortions illegal will just create so many problems it's unreal, as it has done in the past. In a perfect world where every child is wanted and overpopulation is not an issue, then maybe.
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      (Original post by Anonymous)
      We spend £118 million on abortions in the UK (with the taxpayer's money), if we spend more money on our social services, improving lives for these children, giving them education, giving social workers help, is it that bad?

      Furthermore, are you implying that adopted children don't get love, just because they're not with their biological parents?

      Life can be hard and cruel for no reason, but life can change; not everything is black and white! At least give it chance and don't give up too easily. You may just think that I'm some sort of snobby, self-entitled, heartless thug who has a plain-sailing life, but that's not true at all. Life is difficult, but it can get better.

      And the contraception failure point, statistics show that it's not a major reason, it's a factor but there are more common reasons such as "personal choices", and "not being ready" (Souce: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/poli...reasons.html#6), this is for the USA btw, can't seem to find UK statistics so they're probably quite similar.

      I didn't say adopted children don't get love. I was referring to the children who are left in care, don't receive enough personal attention and may feel ostracised from other children who are living regular lives with their families. Also, £118 million may seem like a large number, but it is a very small percentage of what is already being spent on social services, and it's highly unlikely that using that money for social services would make a difference, whereas using the money for abortion could make a difference to thousands of women's lives.

      Is it fair to allow women to take up the responsibility of the child when it could drastically change their lives and possibly ruin their future? Of course there is the chance that life can improve, but having an unwanted child can be a huge turning point in a woman's life, the man's life, and the family of the couple; a turning point that often goes in the wrong direction. Is it fair to allow women to go through all the physical and emotional suffering? There isn't "no reason", the whole reason for it is that the woman and the man could have a bright future ahead of them if they didn't go ahead with the baby.

      I don't see why 'not being ready' is not a valid reason. If a woman wasn't ready for a child, she should still be permitted to have sex if she wants. There could be so many reasons for this - if she was too young, if she wasn't financially ready for a baby, if her parents would look down upon it, if she needed more security in her job, or if she just wasn't ready. Most of these people will not use abortion as a last resort, of course they will take precautions to reduce the likelyhood of conception. Furthermore, if the woman truly wasn't ready, then having a child could lead to mental instability and this could drastically affect her life.
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      You could make it illegal but that’s just going to cause people to resort to more dangerous methods (disagree)
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      Life begins and ends with consciousness.

      Before consciousness and after consciousness, the person is essentially the same as a plant or vegetable. This includes when people suffer from brain trauma and lose consciousness with no chance of recovery - these people are no longer human lives as I see it, they're just biological ornaments, they're dead.

      It just comes down to "potential life", but then of course, every single day there are billions upon billions upon billions of "potential lives" that never come into being.

      It's a confusing subject. Hard to pinpoint the most logical solution - and hard to tell when we're being swayed by emotion. Though in a case where the mother's life is in danger, the mother takes priority EVERY time. A conscious human life ALWAYS has perogative over something that hasn't yet gained consciousness.

      A lot of people probably get abortions because they are scared of the financial burden, or think it will ruin their life. Maybe if it was made easier for people to just give up their kids without having to pay or whatever, more women would have the baby.
      • #1
      #1

      (Original post by ByEeek)
      So a couple of things here. Firstly, you are still using words like "I believe". The creation of a baby is science. Complex and not fully understood, but science and science alone. There is no room for beliefs in the process despite what some might advocate.

      Secondly, comparing the US system to the UK system is irrelevant. We live in the UK under UK law and practices used in the US do not add anything to the discussion.

      Thirdly - under UK law, the termination of a pregnancy is legal up to 24 weeks. Using language like murder is neither helpful to the argument nor correct. Abortion is not murder as defined under the law.

      Fourthly, could you tell me how much it would cost social services to look after unwanted and unloved children? £118 million seems like good value for money when you stand it up against the £122 billion is costs to run the NHS.

      Finally, you still haven't really answered my question. If abortion were made illegal, what would happen to the resulting children who would be born unwanted and unloved? The solution always seems to be that we educate women, but this completely ignores the realities of the situation of those who get caught up in other's moral assertions. It is rarely folks like yourself who encounter the dilemma (and it is a dilemma) that many women face. I can tell you for free that women sit outside their cars crying their eyes out before heading to the clinic. I don't think it is a decision any woman takes likely.
      Firstly, the only reason why I use the term "I believe" is because people have different ideas on when a baby's life truly starts. Even though I feel that the whole thing with life being started with conception is factually correct, many individuals have different interpretations. Of course, I know this is science, but there are many examples of science when there are different theories to one concept (for e.g. the origins of the earth, the decline of the dinosaurs) etc.

      Secondly comparing the UK and US system is NOT irrelevant; it's not like I'm completely extrapolating info and twisting it to my own advantage. I did some further research, and the style of (legal) abortions in the UK is virtually identical to the US, other countries in the West, South America, Parts of India etc (unless you can prove otherwise).

      Thirdly, why can't I use the word murder? Just because you don't agree with me, doesn't mean it's wrong. It's not like I'm making baseless claims without any facts; I am endeavouring to use empirical and irrefutable evidence. And if one believes that life starts at conception (Which I have backed up previously imo with facts on pregnancy), then terminating after fertilisation is technically killing a life for pro-life activists like myself. I'm not trying to demean women; I detest pro-life activists who resort to sexism and misogyny, but what I do care about is life.

      When you started talking about how much it costs to run the NHS, could you point me to the sentence where I said it would solve the entire problem? It would go a long way, but I do realise there is much more work to be done. Just because it's a challenging problem, doesn't mean it's not worth doing.

      Finally, I'm sorry if I don't have one, sole answer to your question. It is frankly deplorable and reprehensible to see that our poor children are being neglected, but that's kinda what I'm fighting for. I mean, though you would disagree with me intensely, I'm trying to save children's lives so I'm no monster. Your question is complex and intricate and should be treated on a person by person basis. Our NHS is underfunded; simple as that. And we as the citizens of the UK need to push the government to reform. There's no easy answer to your question, but what these poor children need is love, comfort, attention, money and education. It's not easy, mind you, but terminating a life is NOT the answer. No matter what our ideological differences, we have to work together to make the lives of children and mothers' better. Abortion, in my opinion, is simply not a valid answer.
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      If women are getting to the point where they're having an abortion, it probably means they're not in a position mentally or physically where they're fit enough to raise a child properly. In that case they're probably doing the child a favour. On the other hand, the tax payer shouldn't pay for abortions at all. There's no argument for not using protection which is free anyway.

      The only exception would be rape and if it threatened the life of the mother. The thing about these arguments is that they're the most common used arguments but most full of ****. They only account for 2% of abortion cases.

      Anyhow, I don't care what these people do, just leave me out of it - including what I pay.
      • #2
      #2

      There is literally no reason for abortion to be LEGAL. A lot of people will say "Oh it's my body so it's my choice" but it's like saying "Oh it's my body so I can MURDER someone if I want to". I think people should realise that the fetus is LIVING inside your body so it's not your choice to kill it. The only reason abortion could ever be justified would be if there is a significant risk to the life of the baby or mother. Even if someone is raped they can still have the child and put it up for adoption, no reason to kill babies.
      • #1
      #1

      (Original post by khookie)
      I didn't say adopted children don't get love. I was referring to the children who are left in care, don't receive enough personal attention and may feel ostracised from other children who are living regular lives with their families. Also, £118 million may seem like a large number, but it is a very small percentage of what is already being spent on social services, and it's highly unlikely that using that money for social services would make a difference, whereas using the money for abortion could make a difference to thousands of women's lives.

      Is it fair to allow women to take up the responsibility of the child when it could drastically change their lives and possibly ruin their future? Of course there is the chance that life can improve, but having an unwanted child can be a huge turning point in a woman's life, the man's life, and the family of the couple; a turning point that often goes in the wrong direction. Is it fair to allow women to go through all the physical and emotional suffering? There isn't "no reason", the whole reason for it is that the woman and the man could have a bright future ahead of them if they didn't go ahead with the baby.

      I don't see why 'not being ready' is not a valid reason. If a woman wasn't ready for a child, she should still be permitted to have sex if she wants. There could be so many reasons for this - if she was too young, if she wasn't financially ready for a baby, if her parents would look down upon it, if she needed more security in her job, or if she just wasn't ready. Most of these people will not use abortion as a last resort, of course they will take precautions to reduce the likelyhood of conception. Furthermore, if the woman truly wasn't ready, then having a child could lead to mental instability and this could drastically affect her life.
      Firstly, could you point to me the sentence where I said that £118 million is completely going to solve the problem? Just refer to my previous response with the other pro-choice person because I can't be asked to write it out again!

      With your second and third point, you may be right, but it comes down to the fact that if life begins at conception (which I have backed up with evidence with my previous post), abortion would effectively be terminating a human life. And for me, that is more of a priority, not allowing babies to die. Why do you think life starts later than conception. Like I said, the mother is important, but the baby's life only matters if the mother wants it. Let's take a hypothetical example: if the mother was a few weeks pregnant and decides she wants the baby, all is well. but if something unfortunate was to happen (i.e. a miscarriage) it would be treated as a death, right? A tragic death. So why if we were in the same situation and the mother suddenly decides "Oh, I don't want it for [x] reason", the baby is now irrelevant, despite the fact that it is at the same stage. Completely baffles me.

      What's more important, a precious life or financial difficulties? Not to say that financial difficulties are hard and a horrible thing to go through (trust me, I've been there), but I feel that an actual, human life is so much more important. Money isn't everything; it's quite paramount to an extent, but not the excuse for everything.
      • #3
      #3

      The debate on abortion is a serious and complex debate that has sadly has been highjacked by so-called “feminist” and illiterate religious fundamentalist.

      Should abortion be legal? Yes
      Does killing a fetus hold less weight than killing an adult cause “ThY ant divilped”? Of course, ****ing no
      Does getting an abortion for the sake of achieving a career goal make you a ****? Yes
      Does getting an abortion due to rape make you a *****? No
      Does getting an abortion because “I fordot de Pillz” make you a retard? Yes
      Does getting an abortion due to health issues make you a ****? No
      Does getting an abortion due to the fetus having an uncurbable genetic disorder that will most likely cause great suffering and pain justiable? No

      Can abortion be justified? Yes Is it always justified? No
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      (Original post by Questions1729)
      Think of it this way.

      Let us say that a foetus is always human throughout.
      Now let's consider every situation where abortions occur.
      If we give the foetus and the mother equal weight as humans and neither's life is worth more than the others. My question would abortion still be morally right in this instance ?
      But a fetus is not a human being. That's the whole point.
     
     
     
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