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Do you consider your placement time as work or education? Watch

  • View Poll Results: Are placements work or education?
    Work
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    Education
    6
    60.00%
    Other (please expand your view in thread)
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    I'm just curious how people view it?

    Personally, I think in many cases it is essentially slave labour, especially for those students who have been in healthcare for many years prior to starting their course. Furthermore, when regular staff ring in sick and we end up being counted in the numbers, which happens more times than many educational institutions and NHS Trusts would admit to.

    I can't understand how universities are allowed to charge us approximately £4500 per annum to work on placements assuming that half of your course is on placements?

    Surely at some level this is not legal.
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    It will be interesting to see how students attitudes change now student nurses are essentially paying to be on placement. There will always be an expectation that they help out with all aspects of patient care, as a lot of clinical nursing is learnt through doing, however as you've said, placement areas do take the piss and use students as an extra HCA at times.
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    Not sure about the health service but primary school placements are the best. You essentially gain experience, work with kids and are treated like a professional from the offset. Also allowed to join training sessions and meetings in most schools. I would label it more education than work.
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    you think your being used a free worker then go and talk to a retired nurse there training was way harder. you know what is expected if your not happy dont do it no one is making you. the placements are much more important than the uni stuff be grateful that a busy nurse is prepared to spend there own time training you. you do know mentors are not paid to put up with students.
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    (Original post by paulbarlow)
    you think your being used a free worker then go and talk to a retired nurse there training was way harder. you know what is expected if your not happy dont do it no one is making you. the placements are much more important than the uni stuff be grateful that a busy nurse is prepared to spend there own time training you. you do know mentors are not paid to put up with students.
    The retired nurse you refer to was also paid a salary to be there. Current students are now expected to pay a large amount of money to train. Would you be happy to be used as a spare HCA, whilst paying for it and be told to be grateful? It's attitudes like this which are causing such an "us and them" division in nursing, where students are often told by those who trained under the old apprentice system that their training in university is pointless.

    You're quite right in that no one is making students do placements, but now students pay fees, don't expect there to be a wealth of NQ nurses any time soon if you treat them like this, as they'll walk and make better use of their tuition fees.

    Yes, registered nurses are not paid to mentor students, but it's expected of them in the NMC's code of conduct and being a mentor is usually an essential criteria to apply for senior roles. If we don't train and support the newcomers to our profession and instead belittle and patronise them, telling them that it was all so much harder back in the day, we'll lose the ability to define ourselves as a profession, as the teaching and education of our new nurses will be taken away.
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    Thanks for that detailed reply moonkatt,
    I also wanted to clarify that I was specifically referring to nursing, in which requires 2300 hours on placements in order to fulfill NMC requirements.
    That was also laid out in EU Legislation.
    Now I am in no way denying the value of that time spent in practice.
    I'm merely questioning the reasoning as to why we paying for it, when in general we're helping to improve patient care across the NHS, and reducing workload on RN's..
    At the end of 3 years, yes, you have your reward of an Undergraduate Degree and Registration with the NMC and a broad job market.
    I appreciate that giving students minimum wage is financially unsustainable.
    But my point was that is unfair and unequal to charge the fees of £9250 per annum (like most other students) when half your time is not spent in University.
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    (Original post by moonkatt)
    The retired nurse you refer to was also paid a salary to be there. Current students are now expected to pay a large amount of money to train. Would you be happy to be used as a spare HCA, whilst paying for it and be told to be grateful? It's attitudes like this which are causing such an "us and them" division in nursing, where students are often told by those who trained under the old apprentice system that their training in university is pointless.

    You're quite right in that no one is making students do placements, but now students pay fees, don't expect there to be a wealth of NQ nurses any time soon if you treat them like this, as they'll walk and make better use of their tuition fees.

    Yes, registered nurses are not paid to mentor students, but it's expected of them in the NMC's code of conduct and being a mentor is usually an essential criteria to apply for senior roles. If we don't train and support the newcomers to our profession and instead belittle and patronise them, telling them that it was all so much harder back in the day, we'll lose the ability to define ourselves as a profession, as the teaching and education of our new nurses will be taken away.
    Why should people doing nursing not have to pay their fees then? Every other course has to pay the majority or all of their fees too.

    I know nursing students do more hours than most other course (I live with 2 nursing students) but they are also pretty much guaranteed a job in the nursing from what I understand upon graduating and meeting the requirements which is a massive benefit that most other courses dont have
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    This thread (as hinted by the thread title) wasn't really about fees, but let me address your point.
    At no stage in this thread has anyone said that nursing students should not pay fees.
    I merely stated that now we are paying the same fees as all other students despite the course structure and time commitments of placements being massively different than any other Faculty.

    Your point about the job market has value, yes at the end of 3 years most students are guaranteed jobs (even prior to graduating). We can go on to weigh up the salary aspects of different degrees, but I would prefer to just stick to the question posed.

    Thanks for your input.
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    (Original post by madmadmax321)
    Why should people doing nursing not have to pay their fees then? Every other course has to pay the majority or all of their fees too.

    I know nursing students do more hours than most other course (I live with 2 nursing students) but they are also pretty much guaranteed a job in the nursing from what I understand upon graduating and meeting the requirements which is a massive benefit that most other courses dont have
    I think you've missed the point of my comment, my issue is not with the fact that current students of nursing now have to pay their fees, but the attitudes of certain corners of my profession towards our pre reg students. Ask your housemates what they have to do on placement, and how many times they've been dragged away from learning opportunities due to poor staffing. The difference is now, student nurses are paying for a course to learn to be registered nurses, as they're paying, they're more likely to tell someone where to go if they feel someone's taking the piss. I know I would have done.
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    (Original post by MarkAdHoc)
    Thanks for that detailed reply moonkatt,
    I also wanted to clarify that I was specifically referring to nursing, in which requires 2300 hours on placements in order to fulfill NMC requirements.
    That was also laid out in EU Legislation.
    Now I am in no way denying the value of that time spent in practice.
    I'm merely questioning the reasoning as to why we paying for it, when in general we're helping to improve patient care across the NHS, and reducing workload on RN's..
    At the end of 3 years, yes, you have your reward of an Undergraduate Degree and Registration with the NMC and a broad job market.
    I appreciate that giving students minimum wage is financially unsustainable.
    But my point was that is unfair and unequal to charge the fees of £9250 per annum (like most other students) when half your time is not spent in University.
    Time in clinical practice is essential in developing as a nurse, however it's the quality of that time that is also important. Spending time delivering the fundamentals of care is important, at all points through the three years of the course as you gain experience and the ability to care for and assess patients.

    As you say, and I take issue with this too, students are expected to plug gaps in HCA staffing. While nursing a ward of patients is a team role and you sometimes will be expected to do more than your fair share sometimes as an RN when people are sick etc, unfortunately due to the absolute cluster**** which is staffing in the NHS, this is something that happens quite more often than it should. Odd how we don't see other healthcare students such as physios or ODPs or so on to be expected to take up the slack in a similar manner.

    I'm not familiar with the exact amount students are being expected to pay, I agree it seems wrong to expect the full amount when you're on placement out of the uni for half that time. It might be worthwhile starting discussion with the RCN about this topic and see if there are other student members who feel the same way.
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    (Original post by moonkatt)
    I agree it seems wrong to expect the full amount when you're on placement out of the uni for half that time. It might be worthwhile starting discussion with the RCN about this topic and see if there are other student members who feel the same way.
    I appreciate and agree with everything you've said.
    I have been in the RCN for 5 years, and have good network connections. I will join the student discussion group and bring this issue up and contact my local representative that I know.
    Kind regards.
 
 
 
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