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Do we need selective education? Watch

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    (Original post by Hatter_2)
    You must be so proud that as a 23 year old the most exciting part of your day is to wind people up on an online forum. Why not pick on someone else and stop harassing me.
    I was discussing the issue of selective education. As usual, you make things personal.

    Either comment on the debate surrounding selective education or don't. Stop ruining threads by resorting to personal attacks.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I was discussing the issue of selective education. As usual, you make things personal.

    Either comment on the debate surrounding selective education or don't. Stop ruining threads by resorting to personal attacks.
    I started the thread, piss off and stop being a cyberbully
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    (Original post by Hatter_2)
    I started the thread, piss off and stop being a cyberbully
    Starting a thread does not give you an excuse to resort to personal insults at people who are contributing to the thread.

    I would be interested to know how asking for you to provide evidence for your claim that grammar schools increase social mobility, makes someone a cyberbully.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    No. There is next to no evidence that grammar schools do or ever did increase social mobility. The main benefactor of them has always been wealthy, middle class families anyway.

    Having bright kids in a school lifts the overall performance. It means that parents of all children, however bright have an interest in the school.
    No. I'm am not from a wealthy middle class family. I moved from a state school to a grammar school due to my ability. My parents are immigrants. I am so grateful I moved schools, because the environment and peer pressure is vastly changed. There's hardly a fight, the entire school doesn't vape, no one embraces the "thug-life" attitude, from what I know, there isn't a child drug dealer.

    The teaching environment is much better, with less teachers leaving to move onto grammar schools, or other schools so we hardly have covers. Because of the less disruptive pupils in my school compared to the state school, which had a handful of nut jobs in set 3, good lord, especially set 3 maths, I got into less trouble, didn't feel the need to bully or boost my rep, vape nor buy flashy Armani clothes and put the road man persona which I'm simply not. I feel like due this weight being lifted, my ability is much better. I'm in set 1 for all my classes and I am predicted all 8's and one 9 in maths.

    Sure this may have been due to me working at home, but the change in environment made me commit to this new, and i'd say better, lifestyle. Selective education is needed as it could potentially bring out the best grades in people. Sure I have no evidence on the ffects of social mobility, but I have witnessed it first hand in my life-its enough evidence for me anyway ;P
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    (Original post by mc_miah)
    No. I'm am not from a wealthy middle class family. I moved from a state school to a grammar school due to my ability. My parents are immigrants. I am so grateful I moved schools, because the environment and peer pressure is vastly changed. There's hardly a fight, the entire school doesn't vape, no one embraces the "thug-life" attitude, from what I know, there isn't a child drug dealer.

    The teaching environment is much better, with less teachers leaving to move onto grammar schools, or other schools so we hardly have covers. Because of the less disruptive pupils in my school compared to the state school, which had a handful of nut jobs in set 3, good lord, especially set 3 maths, I got into less trouble, didn't feel the need to bully or boost my rep, vape nor buy flashy Armani clothes and put the road man persona which I'm simply not. I feel like due this weight being lifted, my ability is much better. I'm in set 1 for all my classes and I am predicted all 8's and one 9 in maths.

    Sure this may have been due to me working at home, but the change in environment made me commit to this new, and i'd say better, lifestyle. Selective education is needed as it could potentially bring out the best grades in people. Sure I have no evidence on the ffects of social mobility, but I have witnessed it first hand in my life-its enough evidence for me anyway ;P
    What happens to the other schools, which then effectively become known as bad schools?

    This was the major problem last time. Non-grammars became forgotten about and written off.

    Having schools with children of all abilities, is better in the fact that both rich and poor parents have an interest in the same schools.
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    I went to a comprehensive all the way up to year 11, currently in a grammar 6th form ( I live in Kent), and there's a huge culture difference between the two. It's pretty clear that the majority of the comprehensive students didn't want to be in school at all, most went to music college or apprenticeship, compared to my current school where everyone in year 11 continued into year 12 and 90% go to university. As someone who used to live in a rural part of Australia where there were only two schools within driving distance, both comprehensive, It's clear that you can have good students without the grammar system, although I do like it now being with only like minded people.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    The problem isn't so much selectivity as entire separate institutions. Setting by ability within a school is fine. The problem with the old selective school system was that, in the minds of their pupils, a Grammar School spelt "real school where there is a clear purpose to why you're there" while a Second Modern spelt "pointless dumping ground where they pretend to teach you to keep you occupied for five years because you can't actually be sent out to to work until you're 15".

    To stand any chance of rectifying this in a hypothetical revived selective system, massive investment would be needed in the Secondary Moderns, which would basically permanently need more attention. Which would result in Grammar School parents moaning that they're being treated "unfairly".
    Hence why universalism is best policy.
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    I’m current sitting in one as I write this comment. I’d fully support bringing them back.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    What happens to the other schools, which then effectively become known as bad schools?

    This was the major problem last time. Non-grammars became forgotten about and written off.
    Indeed, and the point needs to be made is that this wasn't a separate problem, it was an almost inevitable outcome of the system.

    The system was structured so that in most places, only Grammars and Secondary Moderns were available. So the criteria of the 11 Plus was always about whether or not you'd got into the Grammar. For all the official efforts to deny that it was a "pass/fail" test, that wasn't just a popular perception but an accurate description of it. You didn't have to get a certain score or ranking to get into the Secondary Modern - that was just for "everyone else".

    And then once the test was centred around the demands of the Grammars, everything else was as well, as they were in the position to set all the conditions. How many went to each school per year was set by how many the Grammar could take with its available resources, and how many the Secondary Modern could take was irrelevant, they just had to take the rest. If there were 250 kids in a year, and both schools only had the resources for 100 each, then the Grammar would take 100 and the Secondary Modern would just have to stretch space and resources fit for 100 to 150. The higher-qualified staff needed for Grammars meant they were in a better bargaining position to get more funding from the word go, while the Secondary Moderns basically had to take what they got.
 
 
 
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