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    (Original post by Davij038)
    The state of this....
    Top Tory minister Michael Fallon has resigned now. You were saying?

    Fallon is one of the most unpleasant of the leading Tories, he is the one who smeared Ed Miliband's father and more recently told blatant lies about Jeremy Corbyn that the voters decided not to believe. Good to see the back of him, at least for now.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    It might be worth remembering that the Tories have a history of sleaze and infighting that ended Major's government and saw the Tories whipped out of power for 13 years!
    Things generally settle to the bottom and they do seem to be returning to their normal.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Top Tory minister Michael Fallon has resigned now. You were saying?

    Fallon is one of the most unpleasant of the leading Tories, he is the one who smeared Ed Miliband's father and more recently told blatant lies about Jeremy Corbyn that the voters decided not to believe. Good to see the back of him, at least for now.
    Your slur that being a conservative MP makes you more likely to be a potential rapist is stupid childish nonsense.

    Labour has its fair share of dirty laundry too as we have also seen.

    What did Michael Fallon say about Corbyn?

    Michael Fallon is certainly no great loss.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    What’s more disturbing I think is that it gets hushed up- there needs to be a clear whistleblowing policy and ways of dealing with it so that things do not become a witch hunt.
    A big factor is not wanting to harm your own faction. Whether that be your party or a group within your party. Some female sexual harassment victim has said they deliberately kept quiet as they didn't want it to swing a seat to the conservatives in the 2015 election. So in some cases the victims censor themselves.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    A big factor is not wanting to harm your own faction. Whether that be your party or a group within your party. Some female sexual harassment victim has said they deliberately kept quiet as they didn't want it to swing a seat to the conservatives in the 2015 election. So in some cases the victims censor themselves.
    Christ.

    Justice is far more important than winning a bloody seat. It’s a disgrace that Thatcher protected Pedos so that the government didn’t get all lumped in, in the scandal. I give the public more faith than if a leading Tory/ labour/ etc MP turns out to be a wrong un they wont all jump to the conclusion they all are.

    Then again if people are as thick as some posters on here are maybe the old witch was right...
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Your slur that being a conservative MP makes you more likely to be a potential rapist is stupid childish nonsense.

    Labour has its fair share of dirty laundry too as we have also seen.

    What did Michael Fallon say about Corbyn?

    Michael Fallon is certainly no great loss.
    There are two others who I hope go as well, though I will not name them.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Christ.

    Justice is far more important than winning a bloody seat. It’s a disgrace that Thatcher protected Pedos so that the government didn’t get all lumped in, in the scandal. I give the public more faith than if a leading Tory/ labour/ etc MP turns out to be a wrong un they wont all jump to the conclusion they all are.

    Then again if people are as thick as some posters on here are maybe the old witch was right...
    Well it's understandable. From the labour standpoint, if you knew vulnerable peopel, or new someone who committed suicide due to benefit cuts (there are labour and left wing atavists who fit this) I can see why you would at least wait until after an election. You could easily make a self sacrificing that makes keeping quiet in order to try and oust the Tories a rational utilitarian decision. This sort of thing could effect the result in a marginal seat. The Tories weaponless Labour sexism and racism all the time.

    In these cases I don't blame the victims, they are in a rock and a hard place. It's the perpetrators. Politics is often a zero sum game which leads to a load of crap happening and people doing things they wouldn't normally do. I imagine it is much more intense and confusing in more smaller and focused groups like the SWP.

    An extreme example of this is the self sacrifice of Soviet communists during the Stalin purges, they still often acted in a way to defend the soviet union. Even when they were waiting to be executed they still were acting politically in this regard, even if it was just the tactics used in what they wrote in their last letters...

    That's my view from the left wing side being a leftist myself. I could say the conservative version is much more just wanting to keep in power, hence the blackmailing nonces to uphold the whip rather than actually doing something about sexual abuse. That's probably prejudicial to at least some degree. Tory equivalent of self sacrifice is doing whatever is needed to keep the country out of the hands of Marxists.

    This new statesman article is about ti as well
    https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...ent-parliament
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    I imagine there is a disproportionate number of people who engage in sexual harassment who are in positions of power as it probably selects for people who like having power, one way of exercising power is having sexual power over someone and using it.



    This is part of the problem. Consensual sexual conduct, such as having an affair, is being lumped into the same category as sexual assault. It's just all treated as blackmail for whips to install party discipline. The government has an interest in keeping sexual assault secret.
    An affair is something you keep as dirt, a public relationship isn't which is what is funny about the list. As for it being in the interest of a government to keep sexual assaults a secret, that is only true if they can keep it a secret, something that is becoming increasingly difficult. If they fail to keep it a secret they just made things 100 times worse by trying to cover it up.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Top Tory minister Michael Fallon has resigned now. You were saying?

    Fallon is one of the most unpleasant of the leading Tories, he is the one who smeared Ed Miliband's father and more recently told blatant lies about Jeremy Corbyn that the voters decided not to believe. Good to see the back of him, at least for now.
    "resigned" either something worse is coming or far more likely May wants him out of the way for some reason and the Julia story gives her a perfect excuse to send somebody to his office to say "sign here", it isn't something you resign over.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Well it's understandable. From the labour standpoint, if you knew vulnerable peopel, or new someone who committed suicide due to benefit cuts (there are labour and left wing atavists who fit this) I can see why you would at least wait until after an election. You could easily make a self sacrificing that makes keeping quiet in order to try and oust the Tories a rational utilitarian decision. This sort of thing could effect the result in a marginal seat. The Tories weaponless Labour sexism and racism all the time.

    In these cases I don't blame the victims, they are in a rock and a hard place. It's the perpetrators. Politics is often a zero sum game which leads to a load of crap happening and people doing things they wouldn't normally do. I imagine it is much more intense and confusing in more smaller and focused groups like the SWP.

    An extreme example of this is the self sacrifice of Soviet communists during the Stalin purges, they still often acted in a way to defend the soviet union. Even when they were waiting to be executed they still were acting politically in this regard, even if it was just the tactics used in what they wrote in their last letters...

    That's my view from the left wing side being a leftist myself. I could say the conservative version is much more just wanting to keep in power, hence the blackmailing nonces to uphold the whip rather than actually doing something about sexual abuse. That's probably prejudicial to at least some degree. Tory equivalent of self sacrifice is doing whatever is needed to keep the country out of the hands of Marxists.

    This new statesman article is about ti as well
    https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...ent-parliament
    Fine, although IIRC labour weren’t going to reverse benefit cuts instead focusing on tuition fees.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    An affair is something you keep as dirt, a public relationship isn't which is what is funny about the list. As for it being in the interest of a government to keep sexual assaults a secret, that is only true if they can keep it a secret, something that is becoming increasingly difficult. If they fail to keep it a secret they just made things 100 times worse by trying to cover it up.
    The Tory spreadsheet shows they're only interested in sexual harassment as far as it's leverage over MPs.

    Yeah well, they have made it 100 times worse by the looks of it.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    The Tory spreadsheet shows they're only interested in sexual harassment as far as it's leverage over MPs.

    Yeah well, they have made it 100 times worse by the looks of it.
    I know you love to assume truth for partisan reasons, but do you have proof for any of those on the list beyond those already known. Last I checked there is an anonymous accuser for Green because he's being internally investigated, there are known accusers for parts of the list because it's old news, and leadsom has accused Fallon of the vague offence of "lewd remarks" which could vary from one inappropriate comment to prolific remarks. Fabricant wants to know who he was allegedly inappropriate with claiming even the gossips in the press gallery hadn't heard anything until the "leak".

    I know it's now popular to assume guilt when somebody claims to have been a victim, apparently it now extends to presume guilt even before there is an accuser if there is a rumour something may or may not have happened.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    The Tory spreadsheet shows they're only interested in sexual harassment as far as it's leverage over MPs.

    Yeah well, they have made it 100 times worse by the looks of it.
    You have somebody accused of rape. Let's not get too giddy.

    Not to mention Rotherham.
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    People in power doing what people in power do, feel entitled because of their privilege.

    It's bad that genuine sexual assault occurred (like that one Labour member who was raped) but it's even worse that this list was only published for political reasons, not because of how bad this type of thing is..
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    Horrible description of sexual antics of Labour shadow cabinet member Kelvin Hopkins against a young woman party member on Radio 4 news right now.
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    She was told she had to go to the NEC with a formal complaint, but the Labour Party only took action when it was clear she was going to the press after being fobbed off.

    Complainant is Ava Etemadzadeh.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/02/labour/
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Horrible description of sexual antics of Labour shadow cabinet member Kelvin Hopkins against a young woman party member on Radio 4 news right now.
    And only suspended mere minutes before the telegraph published the story, I'm assuming they were kind enough to give some forewarning that the story was coming out

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    And only suspended mere minutes before the telegraph published the story, I'm assuming they were kind enough to give some forewarning that the story was coming out

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I don't know if they always stick to it, but generally when it's a highly personalised story, the main newspapers contact the person(s) they are going to attack just before they run it, to give them an opportunity to comment. That's probably what happened here.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I don't know if they always stick to it, but generally when it's a highly personalised story, the main newspapers contact the person(s) they are going to attack just before they run it, to give them an opportunity to comment. That's probably what happened here.
    And beyond that it's simple decency to give at least some warning.

    Now it's come out the labour chief whip raised concerns when he was appointed, but for once I agree with Jess Phillips with her saying she believes his appointment was a **** up rather than a conspiracy.

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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    You have somebody accused of rape. Let's not get too giddy.

    Not to mention Rotherham.
    That doesn't stop what I just said from being true.

    The rape accusation also isn't a valid comparison. The list shows there is a tolerance of sexist abuse and structural sexism insofar it is only seen as a way to leverage MPs. They new about it and didn't do anything other than give it to the whips. The only time it would come to light would be to attack an MP. An individual rape on its own doesn't show either of those things, although I don't deny there is structural sexism and tolerance in Labour as well. What makes the Becky Baily rape allegation those things is that she was encouraged not to report it and there was a lack of suitable mechanisms for reporting it and getting help/advice.

    I suspect Labour are going to be better at implementing measures to stop this kind of thing, which will ironically make them more prone to allegations. The Tories are of course welcome to prove me wrong.
 
 
 
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