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B1301 - Licencing Bill 2017 Watch

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    (Original post by Jacob E)
    That does not matter, spirits and wine will increase in price; drinkers of these drinks should not be punished when the majority of these drinkers do not place a higher burden on the state.
    Eh, spirits are where the drink related issues come from for the most part, wine not so much. I also suspect that wine drinkers also contribute disproportionately much because I imagine that probability of being a wine drinker correlates to income to an extent.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    WTF do you think most people are drinking if this knocks 50p a pint off when most are paying about that much per pint currently? There are also far easier ways to deal with the stress on the NHS, such preventing unnecessary journeys by drunks to A&E
    Roughly xD I was only getting the data from the graphs, not actual figures. I played around with my program to get PPU prices instead of actual figures and I haven't got around to putting it back yet.
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    Nay

    This bill actually does the opposite to what is claimed in the description it does not “enable the consumption of alcohol in a controlled environment at an earlier age” it increases it by 6 years, seems this government likes to try to mislead people.
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    (Original post by DayneD89)
    Sorry, I made the software to make the graphs, or at least to print out CSV files and then excel to graph them. I'm not sure how you think they are wrong though? Modifying the software to work out the PPU graphs was a later addition to the software but I can put it back if I need to.

    From a quick glance, your examples of effects on drinks seem about right to me though.
    It's quite simple, part of the belief there was an error came from the lack of labels on the axes meaning I was reading the x axis as units rather than percentage (the most obvious reading given price per unit), the definite error is that on the old rates only spirits should be continuous graphs, all the rest should be discontinuous, the error would be minor if it weren't for the fact they show the increases to be gradual and the software's desire for smooth curves leads to false kinkiness
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    It's also insufficient because it's one of those offences that could be repealed with no effect, most if not all clubs and a great many, probably most, pubs would have been shut down otherwise.
    I disagree. Not that pubs don't sell to people who are drunk, but that they do use that law to refuse sale to people who are too drunk, which really is the desired effect.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Nay

    This bill actually does the opposite to what is claimed in the description it does not “enable the consumption of alcohol in a controlled environment at an earlier age” it increases it by 6 years, seems this government likes to try to mislead people.
    Indeed, to pretend that a pub is a more controlled environment than the home is simply absurd, either that or the author doesn't go to decent pubs.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Nay

    This bill actually does the opposite to what is claimed in the description it does not “enable the consumption of alcohol in a controlled environment at an earlier age” it increases it by 6 years, seems this government likes to try to mislead people.
    Alcohol is a dangerous drug to younger people, and more should be done to prevent young children drinking. What this does do is allow people a better grace period into drinking when they are 16 and more developed.
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    (Original post by DayneD89)
    I disagree. Not that pubs don't sell to people who are drunk, but that they do use that law to refuse sale to people who are too drunk, which really is the desired effect.
    In my extensive experience people are refused drinks not when they are drunk but when they should be being kicked out on other grounds (e.g. being aggressive or throwing up) or when they are so pissed they can barely stand up, too drunk is also highly subjective.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    It's quite simple, part of the belief there was an error came from the lack of labels on the axes meaning I was reading the x axis as units rather than percentage (the most obvious reading given price per unit), the definite error is that on the old rates only spirits should be continuous graphs, all the rest should be discontinuous, the error would be minor if it weren't for the fact they show the increases to be gradual and the software's desire for smooth curves leads to false kinkiness
    Fair point. I will revise the graphs to be clearer for the next draft. I was worried there was going to be a problem with my figures rather than a problem with the way excel has drawn the graphs.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    In my extensive experience people are refused drinks not when they are drunk but when they should be being kicked out on other grounds (e.g. being aggressive or throwing up) or when they are so pissed they can barely stand up, too drunk is also highly subjective.
    I've seen many people refused drinks for reasons that boiled down to being too drunk without that being the stated reason. Rarely is someone simply told that they have had too much, but they are refused service when they start being a problem, which drunk people often are. Of course, these same people would currently be able to get a much stronger beer at a cheaper price from many shops anyway, so it is still an improvement.

    I would love a decent definition for too drunk but I've failed on that front so far.
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    (Original post by DayneD89)
    Alcohol is a dangerous drug to younger people, and more should be done to prevent young children drinking. What this does do is allow people a better grace period into drinking when they are 16 and more developed.
    Well why lie about what the bill does?
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Well why lie about what the bill does?
    I don't believe I did. That is a small common-sense section of a bill which lowers the legal drinking age in pubs by two years. It moves the laws for supplying alcohol to under 11s to that of supplying tobacco to under 18s. As you say, we do want to allow drinking in controlled environments as a lead up to being able to buy as much alcohol as you desire and can afford. 11-16 at home, where it is most controlled, 16-18 in pubs, then at 18 from shops.
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    (Original post by DayneD89)
    I've seen many people refused drinks for reasons that boiled down to being too drunk without that being the stated reason. Rarely is someone simply told that they have had too much, but they are refused service when they start being a problem, which drunk people often are. Of course, these same people would currently be able to get a much stronger beer at a cheaper price from many shops anyway, so it is still an improvement.

    I would love a decent definition for too drunk but I've failed on that front so far.
    The problem with defining when somebody is drunk is it's so variable. If we go off BAC some people will barely be able to stand with BACs where others still have near enough full motor control (the other problem being the fact that people would need brethalising), if we go off amount drunk then these problems get even worse, if we go off of behaviour we get again variability some people are aggressive when drunk, others sleazy, others particularly sleepy, others change very little, if we go on motor ability we then get the differences in motor vs cognitive ability as you drink, some people lose motor control and are still with it while others will maintain decent motor control but not be with it. Any realistic system has to be based off of judgement, when I was at uni in my normal bar I would be able to get away with drinking the amount two people would be refused service after because the staff knew I was fine with it even if drunk, if going off the technical definitions they would have been breaking the law probably less than a quarter of the way in. Then if I went out it would be to another bar where we knew the owner so could get even more wasted, then the two clubs we used to go to we knew the owner of one and were friendly with the other so there were no issues there unless somebody got gropey, violent, or were a severe danger to themselves.
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    (Original post by DayneD89)
    I don't believe I did. That is a small common-sense section of a bill which lowers the legal drinking age in pubs by two years. It moves the laws for supplying alcohol to under 11s to that of supplying tobacco to under 18s. As you say, we do want to allow drinking in controlled environments as a lead up to being able to buy as much alcohol as you desire and can afford. 11-16 at home, where it is most controlled, 16-18 in pubs, then at 18 from shops.
    When are you younger, when you are 5 or 11?
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    (Original post by DayneD89)
    I don't believe I did. That is a small common-sense section of a bill which lowers the legal drinking age in pubs by two years. It moves the laws for supplying alcohol to under 11s to that of supplying tobacco to under 18s. As you say, we do want to allow drinking in controlled environments as a lead up to being able to buy as much alcohol as you desire and can afford. 11-16 at home, where it is most controlled, 16-18 in pubs, then at 18 from shops.
    What is the minimum age someone can drink now? 5
    What is it if this bill passes? 11

    Seems to me to be a increase and you stated that this is:

    “An Act to enable the consumption of alcohol in a controlled environment at an earlier age”

    You yourself admit the home is a controlled environment, so how on earth is 11 lower than 5?
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    When are you younger, when you are 5 or 11?
    I'll change it for the next draft if you want to be pedantic :P
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    What is the minimum age someone can drink now? 5
    What is it if this bill passes? 11

    Seems to me to be a increase and you stated that this is:

    “An Act to enable the consumption of alcohol in a controlled environment at an earlier age”

    You yourself admit the home is a controlled environment, so how on earth is 11 lower than 5?
    See comment above
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    The problem with defining when somebody is drunk is it's so variable. If we go off BAC some people will barely be able to stand with BACs where others still have near enough full motor control (the other problem being the fact that people would need brethalising), if we go off amount drunk then these problems get even worse, if we go off of behaviour we get again variability some people are aggressive when drunk, others sleazy, others particularly sleepy, others change very little, if we go on motor ability we then get the differences in motor vs cognitive ability as you drink, some people lose motor control and are still with it while others will maintain decent motor control but not be with it. Any realistic system has to be based off of judgement, when I was at uni in my normal bar I would be able to get away with drinking the amount two people would be refused service after because the staff knew I was fine with it even if drunk, if going off the technical definitions they would have been breaking the law probably less than a quarter of the way in. Then if I went out it would be to another bar where we knew the owner so could get even more wasted, then the two clubs we used to go to we knew the owner of one and were friendly with the other so there were no issues there unless somebody got gropey, violent, or were a severe danger to themselves.
    And if you had become a problem when drunk those same owners you knew would have been more wary of selling you alcohol in future. This is exactly why in that regard I think the current legislation from 2003 does the job as best as any law could.
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    (Original post by DayneD89)
    And if you had become a problem when drunk those same owners you knew would have been more wary of selling you alcohol in future. This is exactly why in that regard I think the current legislation from 2003 does the job as best as any law could.
    Only if it became persistent, regardless that element of the law remains redundant as it is not the being drunk itself that leads to refusal but the consequences, without that element of the 2003 act the drink would still be refused, and the act is still being ignored.
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    (Original post by DayneD89)
    I'll change it for the next draft if you want to be pedantic :P
    what to, just 4 or remove the limit all together?
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