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The real agenda about the sexual scandal hypersensitivity Watch

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    (Original post by Lit teacher)
    Basically, if you are a straight male, don't do anything to a woman that you are not in a relationship with if you wouldn't feel comfortable with a man doing the same to you. Airplanebee2: If you're comfortable with a male boss putting his hand on your knee at work and kissing you on the cheek then at least that doesn't make you a hypocrite.
    Sorry but your argument is fundamentally flawed. In the workplace, yes I agree but there is gradient that slopes off from the workplace, like related socialising.

    I would not expect a straight male to come onto me. I know stranger things have happened but it seems like a bit of an enigma. On the other hand it’s normal for straight men and women to form relationships which is usually played out by the man making the active come on to the women.

    So if you’re saying never come on to women (I have to pretend I’m single and without children for this one), then there would be no relationships and no people in the world.

    I then part of this is the fault of postmodernism / feminism. It has made a lot of women very bratty and entitled. They think we only want men we fancy coming onto us not men we don’t fancy. That is just an impossibility unless you work out a way to make men psychic. To say that men who have made the mistake to attempt to come onto you when you’re not interested are evil people who need to be punished is awful. It’s a complete lack of empathy towards them and an awful way of treating people. They should back off immediately if an advance is not wanted. But to make criminal action against them is an outrage. To run n a man’s life for being rejected.

    Of course with the constant messages about men bad women good, many women probably never stopped to look at this way, from a mans point of view. It’s going to happen sometimes that a make comes onto a woman when she is not interested. Not because the man had some intention to molest or harass the woman but it’s simply just to be expected since men usually make the first move. It’s not even an error on the man’s part, it’s part of the process.

    Your postmodernist icons and professors are telling you things like men’s views don’t matter, white people’s views on race don’t matter. Southern American Christians can be criticised but not Muslims. As well prejudge against anyone who wants to remove this postmodern nonsense, like Trump supporters.

    This has created a large number of reverse bigots who want to oppress innocent people.

    And no logic seemly can debate with this because their only logic in life is “those are the good people” and “those are the evil people.” And they want a ban any views that disagree with them.

    It’s called ideological indoctrination and most people in Britain are ideologically indoctrinated.
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    (Original post by ANM775)
    If she did indeed report it at the time, then I can much more easily accept the behavior was troubling and unacceptable to her
    Whether or not you personally personally accept the depravity of sexual harassment is of course, irrelevant - even more so now that you've essentially confessed to doing it yourself. What's relevant is that this casual acceptance of sexual harassment, along with subtle victim blaming wrt to their decisions to not report such cases immediately (as if people like you would believe them), is precisely what gave rise to the toxic, harmless, misogynistic attitude in the entertainment industry that allowed people like Jimmy Savile to be not-so-subtle about their degeneracies.

    ...however, there's an awful lot of bandwagon jumping currently going on i feel, and if persons are indeed coming forward with incidents like bum slaps after 40 years after smiling about it then i'm sorry ....but i'm not going to take that person too seriously. If that makes me have a "sick deluded mentality" then so be it.
    Well of course you won't take them seriously if you've unashamedly admitted to violating someone's right to personal space yourself.

    If she really did complain about it at the time and people did absolutely nothing then that isn't ok imo
    Why not? It's just a bit of harmless banter, right? It's not like he raped her! /s

    still no one has addressed the point i bought up about that straight dude accusing kevin spacey of sexual harassment basically off the fact that he felt put out that a gay man hugged him unsolicited.

    if kevin spacey had been an attractive 20 year old female hugging him unsolicited like that you would not be hearing sexual harassment claims being brought against him.
    So? How does that excuse sexual harassment? Attractive people get away with all sorts of crimes, including sexual harassment and assault (see Ted Bundy admirers), violent assault (see Chris Brown fans), murder, rape and even terrorism (see Boston bomber fans). Jurors are also less likely to convict attractive suspects, even if it's evident beyond reasonable doubt that the attractive suspect committed the crime (see the recent case where a judge let a young female student get away with stabbing someone).

    so what does that say about many of these sexual harassment claims, if a guy would let an attractive female hug him like that and get away with it, but kick up a huge fuss with the police about a gay man doing it. Same "crime", totally different reaction.
    You tell me. What does attractiveness have to do with preventing sexual harassment and punishing those who are responsible? You do realise a lot of these unattractive perpetrators were able to evade being held accountable for decades, not because of their attractiveness or lack thereof, but because of power, influence, and societal attitudes towards the victim? Instead of lauding the victims for finally being able to speak up about these incidents having suffered in silence, your immediate response is to ***** about how the attractive perpetrators would have been able to get away, and that somehow diminishes the suffering of victims who choose not to report something there and then? How absurd.

    and no I've never groped a woman, the last time I "groped" someone was a girl when I was in school at age 12, and she was 13/14 ...and I grabbed her behind unsolicited. I'm sure you will start calling me a sex offender or something lol based off this
    LOL, yes, grabbing someone's behind is so funny, and that too at the age of 12. What a lad! You should be proud to have made your contribution to a culture wherein sexual harassment and assault is still normalised. /s

    I wonder if you'd be as enthusiastic and light-hearted about it if it were your daughter who had been assaulted by a guy; I wonder how you'd feel if your daughter then grew up in a neighbourhood where she'd experience wolf-whistling on a daily basis, get men following her shouting lewd remarks, and generally making her afraid to go out again lest a creep smack her arse for a bit of "harmless banter". You'd probably tell her to get over it, after-all it's not like they're raping her yet, right?

    ....but males and females were both doing stuff like this to each other back then, and as I pointed out in my last post it wasn't a massive deal. If you read in my other post I had stuff like this done to me too by females. The last time I was "groped" if you want to call it that was at age 26 in a club where some girl just sort of grabbed my ass unsolicited. It wasn't a big deal to me.
    As a man, I've been groped by both men and women in clubs. I've also been assaulted, pushed, threatened, and mugged. It's not a big deal, it happens everyday in my city. So what? Whether or not I'm personally bothered enough to report these crimes is wholly irrelevant to the heinousness of all such social evils; their pseudo-normality is not, and will never be an excuse as far as legislation is concerned.

    The last time I experienced something which could be classed as sexual harassment was several months ago whilst walking past some mid teen girls and one of them going "hello darling", there has been a few occasions as well where I have been catcalled from moving vehicles.

    It is not something I would ever consider reporting or going to the police about, even though there were actually two instances where I was actually angry over it because the women were being too disrespectful I feel.
    Again, what makes you think anyone gives a flying **** about whether or not you'd personally report a crime? Crime, especially sexual crime, is widely unreported as it is. You're not a special tough guy for it.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Rather than critiquing Jo Brand as a comedian, why don't you actually watch the clip? It is only a minute long. And in that time she completely bats Ian Heslop's remark (which is very much along the same lines as your thinking) that much of these allegations of harassment is hardly high profile.

    Her response was broadly along the line that yes, they are quite trivial but when working in a place like the Palace of Westminster if such small and trivial harassment are repeated time and time again, over a period of time they weigh you down.

    Your failed attempt to kiss a girl in a nightclub could be put down to poor form and bad luck, but if you were the 20th bloke there that night that tried to kiss her, she probably had a pretty crappy evening, especially if she only went out to have a good time with her mates.

    It seems you still don't get it.
    No they are different scenarios across this thread. Firstly the Jimmy Saville show his hand where the sun don’t shine on a stranger scenario, that’s called a pervert. Then there’s people walking up to a stranger in club and touching their area or attempting to kiss them - it’s a bit bizarre. In the scenario I’m describing I had walked back to the hall of residence with the girl, tried to kiss her but she wasn’t interested, so that was the kill signal for anything physical. No issue at all. What I am getting at is that people are now trying to call that third scenario sexual harassment when it is not.

    I watched Jo Brands Clip. I have worked in many organisation due to the nature of my work and I have never seen any harassment behaviour towards females, only somethings very crude jokes which no one minded. For second I have known and know a number of women and none have ever spoke about any first hand experience, there were one or two second hard stories. One I heard, involved someone attempting suicide.

    So if any woman has had a personal experience of constant harassment, let her speak about it on here, and not refer to some hypothetical. I just don’t believe that women on average feel like that in the workplace. I believe it’s lost of fuss about one in a million and postmodern revenge prejudice theory says it’s OK to make all men scared to say boo to a goose for the purpose of a one in a million.

    Creating a culture where all men are afraid of natural social relations is not the answer to solving this rare issue of women being harassed in the workplace. It’s just more political correctness in a culture where truth has been replaced by obscene political correctness and where cowboys and hero’s have been replaced by snot faced wimpy men bowing their heads afraid to say anything out of fear of offending anyone.
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    (Original post by Airplanebee2)
    In the scenario I’m describing I had walked back to the hall of residence with the girl, tried to kiss her but she wasn’t interested, so that was the kill signal for anything physical. No issue at all.
    But I think this is the problem. It was no problem to you. Do you know how she felt about it? Just out of curiosity, and for a bit of comparison, how would your best mate handle things if you tried to kiss him after you had both walked back to halls?
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    But I think this is the problem. It was no problem to you. Do you know how she felt about it? Just out of curiosity, and for a bit of comparison, how would your best mate handle things if you tried to kiss him after you had both walked back to halls?
    I don’t think she had much of a problem with it seeing as she became best mate after that.

    And I don’t think you can compare come one as per ones sexuality to come ons contrary to ones sexuality.
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    (Original post by Dima-Blackburn)
    If I were a man? I am a man, in a perfectly healthy relationship that didn’t start with me making lewd sexual comments and/or invading someone’s personal space to display my power by touching anyone. Have you tried asking someone out, I don’t know....wait for it....by getting to know them like a decent person?

    Now let me ask you a question; since you’ve proven your incompetence in actually engaging with the substance of my argument, I’ll keep it simple for you:

    Do you think the Westminster sex scandal has anything to do with the appropriate manner of asking a co-worker out?
    I think this is a big part of the problem people are simply assuming that their way of asking people out is the only way and the only way that women would want when that isn't true. Many women are looking for men to make the first move and make sexually explicit comments and maybe the men who do this do it because it is those women they would want to have sex/ have a relationship with? Now, you might not want to approach people like that and initiate a relationship in that way but some people would and we have to respect their ways because if we don't then those women wanting those approaches will not get them and be disappointed.

    If someone makes unwanted sexual advances then you simply say no and if they continue then its sexual harassment but its not wrong the first time round unless sexual assault or rape.
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    (Original post by Dalek1099)
    I think this is a big part of the problem people are simply assuming that their way of asking people out is the only way and the only way that women would want when that isn't true. Many women are looking for men to make the first move and make sexually explicit comments and maybe the men who do this do it because it is those women they would want to have sex/ have a relationship with? Now, you might not want to approach people like that and initiate a relationship in that way but some people would and we have to respect their ways because if we don't then those women wanting those approaches will not get them and be disappointed.

    If someone makes unwanted sexual advances then you simply say no and if they continue then its sexual harassment but its not wrong the first time round unless sexual assault or rape.
    Very true. On top of that point about some women may be disappointed, without some fast approaches, also some men might be disappointed.

    (I just needed to put that in there to counter the postmodernists so what if the whites/ males / Christians are disappointed).

    I am still dying to hear how the postmodernist men square this circle: how did you make a move in your relationship, and what if it had turned out that the woman didn’t like it? Would you then be an abuser who needs to be locked up and throw away the key? Or maybe you think you’d deserve to be locked up and the key thrown away?
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    (Original post by Dalek1099)
    I think this is a big part of the problem people are simply assuming that their way of asking people out is the only way and the only way that women would want when that isn't true.

    Many women are looking for men to make the first move and make sexually explicit comments
    Sounds like bs. Who are these women that like unsolicited sexual advances and comments? And why do we need to tolerate unwanted sexual advances in professional settings just because some women want it? Maybe you should stop watching movies that glorify such creepiness because frankly speaking, it doesn’t work in real life.

    If someone makes unwanted sexual advances then you simply say no and if they continue then its sexual harassment but its not wrong the first time round unless sexual assault or rape.
    Sexual harassment is defined by law, not by your subjective criteria. See ByEeek‘s previous posts, as well as Jo Brand’s video linked therein. You wouldn’t like it if a man were to put his hands on your knee, nor would you appreciate it if they tried to kiss you when you haven’t given any consent (either verbal or via body language [eg looking up while hugging, staring deeply and leaning in, etc]), so why would you expect women to put up with your “mistakes” when generally speaking they have to potentially deal with multiple men making the same “mistakes” every other day? 20-50% of women in the workplace felt sexually harassed. Is that percentage acceptable to you?
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    (Original post by Airplanebee2)

    And I don’t think you can compare come one as per ones sexuality to come ons contrary to ones sexuality.
    Why not? What is the difference between a man sexually assaulting a woman or a man?

    If I hit a woman, that is no different to my hitting a man. Why should sexual assault be treated differently.

    Are you sure you weren't born in 1840?
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Why not? What is the difference between a man sexually assaulting a woman or a man?

    If I hit a woman, that is no different to my hitting a man. Why should sexual assault be treated differently.

    Are you sure you weren't born in 1840?
    Funny how you and Dima will not answer a very simple question:

    What if your partner didn’t like it when you made your first sexual move on her?

    Do you think in that scenario you should be classed as a sex offender?

    (The silence will tell all. You wont answer it. This simple question destroys your entire paradigm of male oppression and female victimisation.)

    If you give away all your rights because you are so enamoured by the rights of certain groups, one day you will find that they will be coming for you.
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    (Original post by Airplanebee2)

    I would not expect a straight male to come onto me. I know stranger things have happened but it seems like a bit of an enigma.
    So you avoid answering the question. It's quite simple. If you were talking to another man at work, or in the pub, and he put his hand on your knee, would you feel glad of the attention, or would you flinch away and feel disturbed? What if he tried to kiss you?
    (Original post by Airplanebee2)
    I then part of this is the fault of postmodernism / feminism. It has made a lot of women very bratty and entitled. They think we only want men we fancy coming onto us not men we don’t fancy.
    You're complaining because women feel 'entitled' to refuse unwanted sexual advances? Times are changing. It wasn't so long ago that the law didn't recognise rape within marriage. I know women who have had to avoid going into someone's office alone because of a history of unwanted physical contact which the man thought they liked.

    (Original post by Airplanebee2)
    But to make criminal action against them is an outrage. To run n a man’s life for being rejected.
    When has this happened? Fallon didn't make an innocent mistake, while at work he acted completely inappropriately for someone in his position.

    (Original post by Airplanebee2)
    It’s going to happen sometimes that a make comes onto a woman when she is not interested.
    Yes. It's pretty straightforward. You speak to the woman. Ask if she wants to meet up again. Say something like 'I really enjoyed this evening'. Try making eye contact. Invite her back for coffee, and then see if she wants the lights turned down. And if at any time she says no, you take the hint and back off.

    (Original post by Airplanebee2)
    As well prejudge against anyone who wants to remove this postmodern nonsense, like Trump supporters.
    These would be the people who voted for a man who boasted about sexually assaulting women?

    (Original post by Airplanebee2)
    This has created a large number of reverse bigots who want to oppress innocent people. And no logic seemly can debate with this because their only logic in life is “those are the good people” and “those are the evil people.” And they want a ban any views that disagree with them.
    I haven't seen any logic from you yet, just opinion about what should or shouldn't be acceptable.
    If so many women are coming forward now with stories of unwelcome sexual attention, and in many cases actual assault, logic would suggest that there is a problem. Since in all the cases raised so far the perpetrator has been a man, logic suggests that some men lack either the empathy, morality or respect needed to control their behaviour. Since only a minority of men are facing these accusations, logic would suggest that it is quite possible to form relationships with women without causing distress and offence, and that the actions of the few are a matter of choice.

    Teaching people that they cannot touch others inappropriately, or make unwanted sexual comments, is not indoctrination, any more than anti-bullying strategies, or teaching children not to steal. There are clearly a lot of women affected by sexual harassment. If men need to think twice now before putting their hands where they are not wanted, or making lewd comments, that's a small price to pay.
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    (Original post by Airplanebee2)

    I am still dying to hear how the postmodernist men square this circle: how did you make a move in your relationship, and what if it had turned out that the woman didn’t like it?
    You ask the person out. At first maybe with friends. You talk to her, and listen too. At the end you see if she wants to go out again, maybe just the two of you. Swap numbers. Send a few friendly texts and see how long it is until you get a reply. If that works out, suggest another meet, maybe for longer. See what response there is.

    When it is clear that she likes being with you, find the right moment to make physical contact. Maybe try holding hands as you walk. Maybe as you say goodbye, try to hold eye contact and move closer. If she keeps eye contact and doesn't back off try a kiss.

    This is all assuming that she lets you make all the moves. From my experience women are pretty good at letting someone know whether they are interested or not.
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    (Original post by Lit teacher)
    You are claiming women feel entitled for wanting to refuse unwanted sexual advances .
    No not at all. Let’s say you took a job involving brining items to various Directors of a company. Let’s say sometimes the Directors thanked you kindly, and at other times they snapped at you said said “can’t you see I’m in the middle of thinking, what the hell are you doing.” It’s very entitled behaviour.

    Men can often be made to feel like that by women in the men / woman meeting game. Women can sometimes think oh Id like some male attentional in one instance then, how dare he talk to me in another. Men men have experienced very rude behaviour when they have not been rude. A number of women use male attention to get advantages ranging from free drinks, to openings in the work place to help in hard times. This is some women not all.

    Society wants to put in feedback Mechanisms for what PST (postmodern social theory) calls oppressor groups (whites, males, Christians etc.) but it lacks feedback mechanisms for what PST called oppressed groups (females, blacks, gays) because the theory that society is obsessed with says you can’t criticise these groups. PST has convinced people that if they criticise an “oppressed” group that there is something wrong with them. Hence brainwashed males will never criticise women as a group for anything. If there is a gay TV show with fully naked men, brainwashed men and women won’t complain - whereas this will complain if there is a straight show with fully naked people. They are afraid to complain because they are afraid that their complaint will be construed as prejudice.

    Hence you get a skewed picture between the preferences of one group and the other, the so called oppressed and oppressor groups. (America has evolved to be able to discuss politics this and of course people stuck in the past want to prevent discussion of this - in the U.K. I am the only person discussing this that I know of).

    I will address the second part of your message. I asked how are men supposed to make safe offers without being accused of sexual harassment. Your answer was a long series of questions, small moves and tests. Ok that’s great but not every person and situation works like that. (My misses would probably throw a fit if I tested her like that.) I don’t know about you but I have had quite a few immediate intimacy situations, sometimes one night stands, sometimes just sparked off very quickly what became a relationship.

    The thing is you can’t fit all behaviour into one single box. How are you going to deal with all the people kissing at office Christmas parties? It goes back to the same question, aside from your test and retest the woman situation, are you just going to go and punish men for an attempted non-responded first move?

    Surely you can’t have it both ways, it’s fine if the women likes it but criminal if she doesn’t.
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    I really don't understand why this is so difficult for anyone to understand - if someone says no, it means no. It doesn't mean you just try carrying it on with them. IMO, if you do try and carry it on with someone, they do have every right to go to the police.

    I once had someone (we were out with a group of friends and I didn't know him - he's now a really close friend) approach me in a pub. Being well aware of what his intentions were, (he was clearly trying to make conversation, nothing more) I couldn't whinge something about harassment or whatever. But it was clear from what he was saying and doing, that wasn't the case at all.
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    (Original post by Tiger Rag)
    I really don't understand why this is so difficult for anyone to understand - if someone says no, it means no. It doesn't mean you just try carrying it on with them. IMO, if you do try and carry it on with someone, they do have every right to go to the police.

    I once had someone (we were out with a group of friends and I didn't know him - he's now a really close friend) approach me in a pub. Being well aware of what his intentions were, (he was clearly trying to make conversation, nothing more) I couldn't whinge something about harassment or whatever. But it was clear from what he was saying and doing, that wasn't the case at all.
    There is no one here who doesn’t agree that no means no, or that any inability to take no for an answer or sustained approaches are inappropriate.

    What this debate is about is simply that an initial approach by a man can be classed as harassment and that is in my opinion wrong, not respect men’s perspectives and oppressive to men since they are expected to make the approach.

    No one will bring up the men’s perspective in the political arena instead it is shunned and said to belong in “1850”. This is systematic oppression towards men.
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    (Original post by Airplanebee2)

    What if your partner didn’t like it when you made your first sexual move on her?
    It is rather a hypothetical question as this was not the case. My now wife and I kissed for the first time on our third date and it was probably a month or so later that we had sex for the first time. At each stage everything was consensual and talked about. Neither of us were under any obligation to move forward or do something the other was not comfortable about. This mutual respect continues to this day some 12 years later.

    I think the problem with a lot of folks is they feel that actions must speak louder than words and for men in particular, chalking up one's quest for the evening is all that counts regardless of the consequences for the other person.

    I am not really sure why the conversation keeps swinging back to social situations when the issue being discussed on this thread regards sexual harassment in the workplace. As you have said on multiple occasions - the two things are very much different beasts.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    It is rather a hypothetical question as this was not the case. My now wife and I kissed for the first time on our third date and it was probably a month or so later that we had sex for the first time. At each stage everything was consensual and talked about. Neither of us were under any obligation to move forward or do something the other was not comfortable about. This mutual respect continues to this day some 12 years later.

    I think the problem with a lot of folks is they feel that actions must speak louder than words and for men in particular, chalking up one's quest for the evening is all that counts.
    That’s fair enough how you do it, but what’s good for the goose is not always good for the gander.

    That’s right it’s a hypothetical because at the point of the first move it’s hypothetical whether it goes down well with the other person. It could hypothetically go down well or it could hypothetically not go down well. With my partner it went down well and hence we have kids, but it could have gone the other way theoretically and in the past ventures with someone, some have gone North and some have gone South.

    The point of asking the question, is to highlight that any man can make a move which is not accepted. Personally after a few blunders at age 18 I must have become better at it because I didn’t blunder much after that. But it happens of course. And we can’t go around having this excessively judgmental attitude to all men for normal behaviour.
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    (Original post by Airplanebee2)
    The point of asking the question, is to highlight that any man can make a move which is not accepted. Personally after a few blunders at age 18 I must have become better at it because I didn’t blunder much after that. But it happens of course. And we can’t go around having this excessively judgmental attitude to all men for normal behaviour.
    But hopefully in future, these blunders will start to become socially unacceptable. You are a man. It is no issue to you. But clearly, it bothers a lot of women. I don't think you would appreciate people hitting on you whilst you were out with your mates or your partner. This is certainly the reality, yet you seem to be discounting it as "just one of those things".

    I don't know if you remember the time when coming back from the pub / club involved leaving your stinking clothes outside your room from the cigarette smoke and in my case take a good slug of inhaler. At the time, it was just one of those things. I certainly can't envisage smoking indoors anywhere these days. Society has moved forward. Hopefully we can do the same in terms of sexual harassment or as you put it, innocent blunders. I am struggling to think of any other aspect of life where you act first and ask second.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    But hopefully in future, these blunders will start to become socially unacceptable. You are a man. It is no issue to you. But clearly, it bothers a lot of women. I don't think you would appreciate people hitting on you whilst you were out with your mates or your partner. This is certainly the reality, yet you seem to be discounting it as "just one of those things".

    I don't know if you remember the time when coming back from the pub / club involved leaving your stinking clothes outside your room from the cigarette smoke and in my case take a good slug of inhaler. At the time, it was just one of those things. I certainly can't envisage smoking indoors anywhere these days. Society has moved forward. Hopefully we can do the same in terms of sexual harassment or as you put it, innocent blunders. I am struggling to think of any other aspect of life where you act first and ask second.
    No how can they become socially unacceptable?

    How can any man make a move then? You don’t seem to understand that with any first move (or even subsequent move), there is a risk of rejection.

    Most women are not made of glass and it’s not the end of the world if a bloke comes onto them and they are taken / not interested. Women wouldn’t joke about it if it was such a distressing life changing event. It’s probably more distressing for the bloke who has been rejected.
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    (Original post by Airplanebee2)
    No how can they become socially unacceptable?

    How can any man make a move then? You don’t seem to understand that with any first move (or even subsequent move), there is a risk of rejection.
    I fully understand this. But there are ways and ways of making a move. You could ask? You don't have to stick your tongue down someone's throat to test the waters. You only seem to be looking at this from the male perspective.

    How would you feel if half a dozen blokes tried to snog you whilst you were having a bit of a boogie with your other half?
 
 
 
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