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6 most common political ‘tribes’ in the UK watch

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    (Original post by FL Watch)
    I'm a public sector worker backed Labour in 2015 but not 2017 I'd rather be out of a job then see Corbyn as PM
    That's up to you.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    No more so than the right wing press brainwashes and influences people on a daily basis.

    Of course academics and public sector workers tend to be more left wing. Largely because those on the right tend to chase the higher salaries in the corporate sector. Also the Tories hate the public sector. Why would public sector workers like them back?
    The Independant and Guardian are left-wing rags that spew left-wing shite and also influence people on a daily basis.
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    (Original post by FriendlyPenguin)
    Socialism - or something similar to it - is the way forwards, if you don't want humanity to slowly stumble into a corporate dystopia, as it is currently doing so.

    What is so objectionable about socialism anyway? It merely says that the economy should be controlled by the state. It doesn't necessarily mean we all have to open our borders to the third world and behead everyone who earns too much money.
    Socialism means the economy goes to ****. The main benefit/theory of capitalism is that the economy should thrive, with little government intervention.

    Do you want a much worse economy?

    We are among the world's largest economies, why would you want to change that?
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    That's up to you.
    It depends if you want a terrorist sympathiser in charge of the nation
    IRA lover
    Hamas Lover
    ISIS Lover

    I certainly dont want someone with that record prime minister
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    We always have been one of the biggest economies our left wing politicians are still quite right wing compared with countries like Venezuela and Cuba. Our influence secures us that position

    (Original post by Chaz254)
    Socialism means the economy goes to ****. The main benefit/theory of capitalism is that the economy should thrive, with little government intervention.

    Do you want a much worse economy?

    We are among the world's largest economies, why would you want to change that?
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    (Original post by Chaz254)
    The Independant and Guardian are left-wing rags that spew left-wing shite and also influence people on a daily basis.
    Nah
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    (Original post by FL Watch)
    It depends if you want a terrorist sympathiser in charge of the nation
    IRA lover
    Hamas Lover
    ISIS Lover

    I certainly dont want someone with that record prime minister
    I'm too tired to argue against that drivel.
    I don't believe any of those are true.

    I care about policies that affect me, like housing, cost of living and education.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I'm too tired to argue against that drivel.
    I don't believe any of those are true.

    I care about policies that affect me, like housing, cost of living and education.
    Sooo, you want free stuff? Guess you want some from the Magic Money Tree of Socialism!!!
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    (Original post by Chaz254)
    Sooo, you want free stuff? Guess you want some from the Magic Money Tree of Socialism!!!
    No. I pay taxes.

    Magic money tree? Last I heard that was with the conservatives who majiced £1 billion for the DUP.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    No. I pay taxes.

    Magic money tree? Last I heard that was with the conservatives who majiced £1 billion for the DUP.
    And you use tax-funded services, like everyone else in the country.

    You can't just ask for cheaper housing because you pay taxes.
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    (Original post by Chaz254)
    And you use tax-funded services, like everyone else in the country.

    You can't just ask for cheaper housing because you pay taxes.
    Exactly, and there should be more tax and more tax funded services.

    I think we should be building housing, yes. Which pays for itself in the long run.

    Fiscal multipliers.
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    (Original post by FriendlyPenguin)
    Socialism - or something similar to it - is the way forwards, if you don't want humanity to slowly stumble into a corporate dystopia, as it is currently doing so.

    What is so objectionable about socialism anyway? It merely says that the economy should be controlled by the state. It doesn't necessarily mean we all have to open our borders to the third world and behead everyone who earns too much money.
    Five year plans, five year plans, would you trust any government to even organise a piss up in a brewery. They cut their teeth/learned how to run an enterprise where exactly?

    Some odd services yes are maybe better done centrally, but not the bulk; and politicians never do the day job, they are great at the vision, the promised land, but pretty inept at actual delivery.

    Example, Nicky Sturgeon owns an airport, a pretty poor one to be fair, what since she got it has she achieved with it; hee haw.

    And that, in a nutshell, is the flaw with socialism, lovely idea, just a shame you need to be competent to deliver the desired outcomes.
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    (Original post by DJKL)
    Five year plans, five year plans, would you trust any government to even organise a piss up in a brewery. They cut their teeth/learned how to run an enterprise where exactly?

    Some odd services yes are maybe better done centrally, but not the bulk; and politicians never do the day job, they are great at the vision, the promised land, but pretty inept at actual delivery.

    Example, Nicky Sturgeon owns an airport, a pretty poor one to be fair, what since she got it has she achieved with it; hee haw.

    And that, in a nutshell, is the flaw with socialism, lovely idea, just a shame you need to be competent to deliver the desired outcomes.
    For starters it's not politicians who run the services.

    I don't trust the private sector either tbh. Look at our train service or social care sector. Or energy sectors or gas services or even the water industry.

    Public ownership of key industries really is not a radical concept.

    The public sector is more than capable of producing a good service. The BBC for example regularly outperforms it's private sector competitors and makes a huge profit for the taxpayer. European publicly owned rail companies far outperform our private system.
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    (Original post by DJKL)
    Five year plans, five year plans, would you trust any government to even organise a piss up in a brewery. They cut their teeth/learned how to run an enterprise where exactly?

    Some odd services yes are maybe better done centrally, but not the bulk; and politicians never do the day job, they are great at the vision, the promised land, but pretty inept at actual delivery.

    Example, Nicky Sturgeon owns an airport, a pretty poor one to be fair, what since she got it has she achieved with it; hee haw.

    And that, in a nutshell, is the flaw with socialism, lovely idea, just a shame you need to be competent to deliver the desired outcomes.
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Public ownership of key industries really is not a radical concept.
    For industries that are increasing socializing themselves and reverting to more and more of a command economy approach it makes perfect sense to take them under some form of public ownership. If we are going to have command economies we may as well exert democratic control over them as apposed to have them ran by private power blocks.

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/10/f...-profit-market
    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...roy-capitalism
    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...unds-communist
    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/11/f...alism-planning
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-inde...ism-1479857852
    https://www.economist.com/blogs/free...ne-competition
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    No. I pay taxes.

    Magic money tree? Last I heard that was with the conservatives who majiced £1 billion for the DUP.
    Money well spent.
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    These overlap a bit, of course, but I'd say:

    - Social Democrats
    - Liberal Meritocrats
    - Paternalist Meritocrats
    - Firm Lefties
    - Petty Reactionaries

    Can't really think of a sixth, though I haven't really got national separatism in there, I guess.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    For starters it's not politicians who run the services.

    I don't trust the private sector either tbh. Look at our train service or social care sector. Or energy sectors or gas services or even the water industry.

    Public ownership of key industries really is not a radical concept.

    The public sector is more than capable of producing a good service. The BBC for example regularly outperforms it's private sector competitors and makes a huge profit for the taxpayer. European publicly owned rail companies far outperform our private system.
    No, civil servants ( in effect) who are given strategic direction from politicians.

    And hardly a level playing field comparison between BBC and private sector, it has a large subsidy and has built up a vast back catalogue on the strength of that subsidy. (TV Licence)

    And you will note I did not discount some public ownership, there are area where it is the correct model, I agree with the idea re rail, roads, health, I can even get onboard with regional investment banks supplementing the private sector, but that is possibly as far as I would go down this road.

    But in the round politicians cannot execute, if you wait a bit ,we shall see how fantastic the SNP power company will be.

    May be a generation thing here, I recall at first hand the wonders of the 1970s with the state operating various entities, British Leyland, British Steel, Coal; where are they now.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    These overlap a bit, of course, but I'd say:

    - Social Democrats
    - Liberal Meritocrats
    - Paternalist Meritocrats
    - Firm Lefties
    - Petty Reactionaries

    Can't really think of a sixth, though I haven't really got national separatism in there, I guess.
    Interesting- I’d like to see these elaborated!
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Interesting- I’d like to see these elaborated!
    Sure.

    Social Democrats - Government economic policy should be engineered towards greater economic equality across the board, including across sectional/identity boundaries (i.e. equality across ethnic groups, genders, nationalities, etc) provide for all in need, etc. Votes: Labour, though could be tempted by Green, Lib Dem, or SNP/Plaid.

    Liberal Meritocrats - Government economic policy should be engineered towards giving everyone an equal chance and opportunity, so they can compete on merit within that structure. This requires a decent bit of intervention, but includes the need for specific attention to the disadvantages of minority groups. Free trade and international economic integration are great. Economic inequality needs to be restrained from getting too great, but equality not an end in itself. Votes: Lib Dem, Blairite Labour, occasionally other Lab, Con, or SNP/Plaid if they have particular policies.

    Paternalist Meritocrats - Similar to the Liberals, but don't think as much intervention is required to produce the desired meritocracy. Also, don't particularly see much need to pay specific attention to minority groups - only identity disadvantage that might need specifically addressing is class, to ensure talented poor kids don't fall by the wayside. Government should encourage the "tried and tested" rather than promoting greater pluralism like the Liberals. Economic inequality a motivator rather than a problem. Less enthusiastic about Free Trade and Internationalism due to being more patriotic. Votes: Tory, very occasionally Lib Dem or UKIP for specific reasons.

    Firm Lefties - Anti-capitalist. View Social Democrats' attempt to build economic equality within capitalism as either futile or not good enough. Disadvantages of minority groups within capitalism cannot be fixed - they are proof of capitalism's failure. Economic policy geared towards transformation of economic system, rather than a specific wealth distribution outcome. Ambiguous about EU and other International initiatives - like the idea in principle, but also see them too much as capitalists' clubs. Votes: Corbynite Labour, or no-one. Maybe Green or SNP/Plaid in rare, specific circumstances, and some will vote other Lab out of habit or misplaced hope.

    Petty Reactionaries - Less concerned about economics, largely bothered about social/cultural issues, including those that have little to no impact on their own daily lives. Unlike the paternalists' moderately conservatives' "tried and tested" attitude, they favour things as they were at some point in the (not necessarily specific) past, when policy coincided with their personal aesthetic tastes. Nationalist and strongly opposed to Free Trade, EU, Internationalism, etc. Votes: UKIP or Tory, that latter sometimes based on seeing the former as unrealistic.
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    (Original post by DJKL)
    No, civil servants ( in effect) who are given strategic direction from politicians.

    And hardly a level playing field comparison between BBC and private sector, it has a large subsidy and has built up a vast back catalogue on the strength of that subsidy. (TV Licence)

    And you will note I did not discount some public ownership, there are area where it is the correct model, I agree with the idea re rail, roads, health, I can even get onboard with regional investment banks supplementing the private sector, but that is possibly as far as I would go down this road.

    But in the round politicians cannot execute, if you wait a bit ,we shall see how fantastic the SNP power company will be.

    May be a generation thing here, I recall at first hand the wonders of the 1970s with the state operating various entities, British Leyland, British Steel, Coal; where are they now.
    Politicians can determine broad outlines for sure, but the day to day running and workings are carried out by people far more experienced and skilled in such areas. Our politicians do not run the BBC, for example.

    As for the BBC though, the reason for its success is not down just to its funding but rather it's culture and ability to nurture talent and experiment with new ideas and proposals. It provides a really good service and produces shows such as Bake Off and Strictly Come Dancing which are not only watched by millions but also generate profit through selling the rights and merchandise to foreign stations.

    What I would say though is that you seem to be suggesting that the default position is that something should be in the private sector. You correctly state that the public sector is not perfect, but neither so is the private sector.

    Why can the default position not be that something should be publicly run unless there is strong evidence to suggest the private sector could do it better?
 
 
 
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