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Are the rich getting rich and the poor getting poorer? Watch

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    (Original post by ILuvFood1234)
    Out of curiosity I just wanted to ask what everyone's opinion is on the current government and the way they have tackled the issue of poverty.
    They haven't.

    They've increased poverty.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Wages are much higher there and a big part of that is the fact that a far higher amount of their workforce is unionised and covered by collective bargaining agreements. Public ownership is also much higher there.

    For all the talk about Labour being far left and naive, there was little in the manifesto that would have looked out of place in Scandanavia. The public having ownership of key industries which form a natural monopoly seems more a case of common sense than anything radical.

    On issues like education, job satisfaction and even general happiness they outperform us.

    I will accept that there are a few on the left who do want something much more revolutionary but the vast majority do not. They just want something more akin to the Scanadanavian model. Yet they frequently get described as being naive.
    To clarify, I don't think naivety is leading the youth leftwards, per se. I think it makes them more open to grand, utopian narratives which older people might be more inclined to be sceptical of. Revolutions are always propelled by young idealists and they have historically tacked both right and left.

    I attribute the popularity of Corbyn, specifically, among the young to naivety and I believe, having built him up, if he ever does win power they will inevitably be disappointed. He's an ideologue with no experience of government, who has always concerned himself with idealogical purity over practicality, and who makes no bones about his revolutionary principles. I can see why that appeals to some but I find it rather scary.

    I'm not saying this just to bash Corbyn again, but my explanation of the situation would be that the young are more prepared to overlook his obvious flaws than the old.
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    1. The Labour party will/should never get elected.

    2. If they somehow do get into power, I guarantee they will not deliver on many of their promises. Living standards will likely get worse along with a **** economy.
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    Oh Gawd,

    Very hot potato this because whichever position you take you will upset someone!

    My personal view is May is not PM because she wants to go out of her way to:-
    increase poverty, make everyone homeless, make the rich even richer, cause world war three, or just generally put forward as many "nasty" policies as possible as Corbyn would make you believe. She genuinely wants to make a difference but sees the limitations before her.

    She could take real drastic cuts to things to get monthly spending in line but she's doing it very very gradually as to not rock the boat to much and keep everything flowing. We should certainly give her fair chance to show what she can achieve - things could be a lot worse!

    Meanwhile, Corbyn is promising everything, in fact If you suggested free driving lessons for all 17yr olds I'm sure he would add that into the mix to!! My personal worry for Corbyn is that he is a "Marxist" and will stop,at nothing to get in and follow that agenda, promise the earth and deliver nothing but the stuff people didn't really Want!
    Corbyn has great plans to borrow and spend but not many ways to generate income!

    The UK is not a bottomless pit of free cash, we are over 1 trillion in debt, still spend more per month than we get in and that needs sorting before the debt pile. We spend more on interest for that debt mountain than we do on Education - that has to charge it can't get worse!

    So you can probably tell I'm more pro Tory than pro labour, one thing I do know is that whoever gets in next, first job will be to gives themselves a big fat pay rise!
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Part of the problem is that the word socialism is thrown about so loosely by those across the political spectrum to the point where I'm not even sure what people mean when they say it anymore. The term has been used to describe anyone from Blair to Stalin.

    In my opinion, the vast majority of those on the left do not want revolutionary socialism but rather want us to adopt the Scandinavian model. High tax, high spend, low inequality, strong trade union rights and public ownership of key industries. Whether that counts as socialism, I don't know but it seems vastly preferable to the current system.

    I don't see how pointing to countries such as Norway and Finland, which have adopted such a model successfully and outperform us in all sorts of measures, is naive.

    I would repeat that Labour had a lead among 35-44 year olds. These are not naive young voters, but people with jobs, mortgages and kids.

    I could equally point to 2008 to show the devastation that free market capitalism can cause.
    Actually the public want US levels of tax and Scandinavian levels of service.

    That’s why nothing gets sorted as the politicians know about this and lie all the time.

    It’s why I don’t get involved with the typical left/right dogma and focus on important single issues like housing and previously the EU
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    (Original post by Sycatonne23)
    Too often we look at wealth and income distribution in nominal terms and not material terms. Anybody would be a fool to say that the poorest members of society today aren't better off than the poorest 20 or 30 years ago. This absurdity of relative poverty creates shifting goalposts which never end, demands for wealth redistribution continue, it is almost as if socialists intentionally want us to measure wealth and income deprivation by the relative to one day force us into their communistic vision of economy.


    But only a fool would not appreciate or realise that there were no foodbanks 30 years ago .

    Look at what benefits were back then and compare with what they are now .

    Also compare unemployed benefit provision with your average salary now.

    You may then wish to retract your Ill info formed comments .
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    (Original post by Rinsed)
    To clarify, I don't think naivety is leading the youth leftwards, per se. I think it makes them more open to grand, utopian narratives which older people might be more inclined to be sceptical of. Revolutions are always propelled by young idealists and they have historically tacked both right and left.

    I attribute the popularity of Corbyn, specifically, among the young to naivety and I believe, having built him up, if he ever does win power they will inevitably be disappointed. He's an ideologue with no experience of government, who has always concerned himself with idealogical purity over practicality, and who makes no bones about his revolutionary principles. I can see why that appeals to some but I find it rather scary.

    I'm not saying this just to bash Corbyn again, but my explanation of the situation would be that the young are more prepared to overlook his obvious flaws than the old.
    The middle paragraph could equally apply to Jacob Rees Mogg, whom lots of Tories want to be leader.

    I don't think wanting more affordable housing, better wages and employment rights and cheaper energy bills, is a grand Utopian narrative.

    Sure, some of what Corbyn proposes seems radical, but that's largely because the economic consensus had shifted so far to the right economically that when Ed Miliband proposed a temporary freeze in energy prices, he was called a Marxist.

    The reason for Corbyn's popularity is not that people want a revolution or some grand utopian ideas, but because he actually talks about issues which affect them like housing, student debt and the cost of living. It really is that simple.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The middle paragraph could equally apply to Jacob Rees Mogg, whom lots of Tories want to be leader.
    I'm not really sure Jacob Rees-Mogg has much of an ideology. He's vaguely consistent in his social conservatism, but his economic views are a pick-n-mix of whatever takes his fancy (or, I suppose he'd say, what he believes to be pragmatic).

    Sure, some of what Corbyn proposes seems radical, but that's largely because the economic consensus had shifted so far to the right economically that when Ed Miliband proposed a temporary freeze in energy prices, he was called a Marxist.
    Corbyn is further left than the Labour Party has been in the post-war era - possibly ever - even under Michael Foot. To try to suggest that his (fairly watered down) platform makes him some kind of moderate is naive.
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    (Original post by Johnny English)
    But only a fool would not appreciate or realise that there were no foodbanks 30 years ago .
    I'm afraid that's just false. Organisations like the Salvation Army have been giving out food packages for decades. There were other forms of emergency food provision 30 years ago. Breakfast clubs first started appearing in schools in socially disadvantaged areas in at least the early 1990s. That's not to mention the wide range of local charitable bodies and even "soup kitchen" type provision that has been used in this country in the past.

    Even as little as 30 years ago, poor children were typically more malnourished and had poorer health outcomes. Food poverty has been with us since this country was created - the difference is that we're now paying attention.

    Look at what benefits were back then and compare with what they are now .
    Look also at the huge change that tax credits made and the considerable decline in pensioner poverty.

    Also compare unemployed benefit provision with your average salary now.
    While noting of course that Jobseekers is far from the only benefit that poor people who are out of work receive. Note also the incredible growth in incapacity benefits, where more people at lower levels of impairment have been given considerable top-ups. Note also the increases, above inflation, in the state pension.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The middle paragraph could equally apply to Jacob Rees Mogg, whom lots of Tories want to be leader.

    I don't think wanting more affordable housing, better wages and employment rights and cheaper energy bills, is a grand Utopian narrative.
    That's hardly all Corbyn's offering.

    Sure, some of what Corbyn proposes seems radical, but that's largely because the economic consensus had shifted so far to the right economically that when Ed Miliband proposed a temporary freeze in energy prices, he was called a Marxist.

    The reason for Corbyn's popularity is not that people want a revolution or some grand utopian ideas, but because he actually talks about issues which affect them like housing, student debt and the cost of living. It really is that simple.
    Price fixing is a pretty extreme policy, tbh. Don't let the fact that TMay has recently come around to it fool you. She's just a fool, and weak as butter at the moment.
 
 
 
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