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Texas church attack leaves 27 dead, 20+ injured Watch

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You're narrowing the parameters to ones that suit gun control because there aren't any cases (certainly that I've come across) where gun controls lead to reduces homicides or violent crime in general.
    The argument is that the almost uncontrolled access to and widespread ownership of guns in the US is a major contributary factor ti the high levels of gun deaths in the US. It's really not a hard concept to grasp.

    As for your question I'll give Austria and Jamaica, although I guess you're going to say too strict and not strict enough respectively
    Austria hasn't got gun controls anywhere near as loose as the US. Proportional gun ownership is less than a third that of the US, and Austria's gun homicide rate is twice that of the UK. So what Austria shows is that slightly more relaxed and higher gun ownership leads to slightly higher gun homicide rates.
    Thanks for the example!

    Jamaica is a bit of an outlier due to the nature of society, crime and politics there, but it does indeed have reasonably strict gun control and high homicide rates - although 70% of the murders are gang related rather than random or domestic..
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    (Original post by QE2)
    The issue isn't that he shouldn't have been able to buy an AR-15 - it's that everyone shouldn't be allowed to buy one.

    Most mass shootings are carried out with legally held guns, so I really don't see what your point is.
    All this shows is that existing gun controls are not effective enough.
    Why shouldn't normal people be allowed to buy one? I feel as long as there are laws to stop mentally ill people or those with a criminal record or a track record of bad behaviour from buying them, it should be fine. I don't see why a normal, law abiding person shouldn't be allowed to just buy an AR-15 if that's what they want.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    In fact, majority public opinion in the US is in favour of stricter gun controls. It is the gun industry lobbyists who dominated the agenda of Congress, but that has little to do with popular views and everything to do with the corrupt peddling for votes that now is the reality of US elected officials. The gun lobby prefer profits to the lives of children.
    If this “majority” felt as strongly about it as you think they should, they could put sufficient pressure on Congress, by voting out pro gun representatives and senators, and electing a virulently anti gun President, to make effective change.

    They don’t. It is an issue that is passionately cared about my one side alone; those who believe in the second amendment. The other side is disorganised and ambivalent. There is a fuss from the fake news media and the political left after every shooter outrage, and then it gets forgotten about.by your so callled “ majority”.

    They don’t care.
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    (Original post by Trapz99)
    Why shouldn't normal people be allowed to buy one? I feel as long as there are laws to stop mentally ill people or those with a criminal record or a track record of bad behaviour from buying them, it should be fine. I don't see why a normal, law abiding person shouldn't be allowed to just buy an AR-15 if that's what they want.
    With all due respect, that's the whole ****ing point of this recurring argument!

    Many mass shootings and everyday (literally) murders are committed using legally bought and held weapons.

    If you think that thousands of people killed every year is a necessary price to pay for retaining absolute freedoms, then good for you.

    Presumably you also support the right of everyone to likewise have access to drugs, abortions, kiddie porn, ivory, etc, if they want it?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    With all due respect, that's the whole ****ing point of this recurring argument!

    Many mass shootings and everyday (literally) murders are committed using legally bought and held weapons.

    If you think that thousands of people killed every year is a necessary price to pay for retaining absolute freedoms, then good for you.

    Presumably you also support the right of everyone to likewise have access to drugs, abortions, kiddie porn, ivory, etc, if they want it?
    Child porn involves the abuse of children in order to produce it so no I don't support it. However, guns aren't inherently a bad product. Switzerland for example has plenty of people who own weapons including assault rifles and they don't have a gun crime problem, and the guns bring a sense of security and happiness to hundreds of thousands of people. It's clear that the gun violence problem in the US is caused by many factors including a lack of opportunity for some and poor mental health care. It's not a gun problem
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    (Original post by Trapz99)
    Child porn involves the abuse of children in order to produce it so no I don't support it.
    So you agree that any freedom for some that results in harm to others should be opposed.

    However, guns aren't inherently a bad product.
    So you accept the principle of child porn but only object to it when its application leads to harming others.

    Switzerland for example has plenty of people who own weapons including assault rifles and they don't have a gun crime problem,
    A most disingenuous argument, if you know the facts of the Swiss system.

    and the guns bring a sense of security and happiness to hundreds of thousands of people.
    Child porn brings a sense of happiness to many people. And it kills fewer children than guns.

    It's clear that the gun violence problem in the US is caused by many factors including a lack of opportunity for some and poor mental health care. It's not a gun problem
    :facepalm2:
    The UK has lack of opportunity and poor mental health care, but a tiny fraction of the gun homicides of the US.
    What do you think causes all these extra gun homicides if it's not guns?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    So you agree that any freedom for some that results in harm to others should be opposed.

    So you accept the principle of child porn but only object to it when its application leads to harming others.

    A most disingenuous argument, if you know the facts of the Swiss system.

    Child porn brings a sense of happiness to many people. And it kills fewer children than guns.

    :facepalm2:
    The UK has lack of opportunity and poor mental health care, but a tiny fraction of the gun homicides of the US.
    What do you think causes all these extra gun homicides if it's not guns?
    No because child porn requires that children are abused in order to make it in the first place. Guns can be made without abusing anyone.
    The UK doesn't have the high level of inequality and poor health care that the US has, especially since in the UK everyone can access mental health care for free, whereas they cannot in the US. At the end of the day, a mentally ill person can still kill a few people with a knife or a truck, yet these attacks rarely if ever happen here, because people don't feel the need to carry them out.
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    (Original post by Trapz99)
    No because child porn requires that children are abused in order to make it in the first place. Guns can be made without abusing anyone.
    You are missing the point. The concept of child porn does not require children to be abused.
    Guns do not need to be made freely available to the general public.
    They are both harmless until they are put into practice.

    So you are basically saying that you are happy with the concept of child porn as long as no children are abused. So you are fine with animated child porn and child sex dolls.

    The UK doesn't have the high level of inequality and poor health care that the US has,
    But it does have inequality and poor health care, yet proportionally, it has far fewer gun homicides.

    especially since in the UK everyone can access mental health care for free,
    Not read the papers today then?

    At the end of the day, a mentally ill person can still kill a few people with a knife or a truck, yet these attacks rarely if ever happen here, because people don't feel the need to carry them out.
    So you are claiming that the entire difference in the rate of gun homicides is caused by a lack of free mental health care. Do you have data to support this assertion?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    You are missing the point. The concept of child porn does not require children to be abused.
    Guns do not need to be made freely available to the general public.
    They are both harmless until they are put into practice.

    So you are basically saying that you are happy with the concept of child porn as long as no children are abused. So you are fine with animated child porn and child sex dolls.

    But it does have inequality and poor health care, yet proportionally, it has far fewer gun homicides.

    Not read the papers today then?

    So you are claiming that the entire difference in the rate of gun homicides is caused by a lack of free mental health care. Do you have data to support this assertion?
    why do you think its caused by gun laws?
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    (Original post by Ladbants)
    why do you think its caused by gun laws?
    Not sure what you are asking. Can you be more specific?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    You are missing the point. The concept of child porn does not require children to be abused.
    Guns do not need to be made freely available to the general public.
    They are both harmless until they are put into practice.

    So you are basically saying that you are happy with the concept of child porn as long as no children are abused. So you are fine with animated child porn and child sex dolls.

    But it does have inequality and poor health care, yet proportionally, it has far fewer gun homicides.

    Not read the papers today then?

    So you are claiming that the entire difference in the rate of gun homicides is caused by a lack of free mental health care. Do you have data to support this assertion?
    1) well no because that's weird.
    2) I think it's caused by a number of factors: lack of comprehensive background checks in all states, gun show loophole, gang culture, inequality, lack of opportunities in certain regions and for certain races, open southern border, bad policing, mental health problems and lack of morals.

    The problem isn't with law abiding citizens carrying guns, it's with the lack of gun control and other factors. Banning guns outright isn't the right thing to do imo since it takes guns away from law abiding people who want to own them for various reasons.
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    (Original post by Trapz99)
    1) well no because that's weird.
    Whereas getting a stiffy over your massive personal arsenal isn't?
    Hmm...

    2) I think it's caused by a number of factors: lack of comprehensive background checks in all states, gun show loophole, gang culture, inequality, lack of opportunities in certain regions and for certain races, open southern border, bad policing, mental health problems and lack of morals.
    So you are saying that the US has a plethora of issues that makes its citizens more likely to kill each other.
    So surely restricting access to highly efficient killing machines would be a good idea, no?

    The problem isn't with law abiding citizens carrying guns,
    So no previously "law abiding" American has ever used their guns to commit murder.

    it's with the lack of gun control
    Bingo!

    Banning guns outright isn't the right thing to do imo since it takes guns away from law abiding people who want to own them for various reasons.
    OK. So we should only sell guns to people who sign a document that they will never use them to commit murder at some unspecified point in the future. Or have them stolen by anyone who might do the same.
    That should work.
 
 
 
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