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    (Original post by Napp)
    If it wasnt so utterly repugnant it would be almost funny the double standards NATO nations employ in these situations.
    Indeed. A peaceful referendum in Crimea merits sanctions and outrage, but the violent blocking of a referendum in Catalonia is ignored. The US interfering in elections across the world for decades is justified, but Russia allegedly pushing pro-Trump ads for the US election is a repugnant violation of the US's sovereignty and free elections. The list goes on.

    Indeed, something I always found somewhat amusing was that Israel helped Iran on several occasions from selling them copious amounts of weaponry to giving them intelligence and so on. What a far cry we are from that today?
    Indeed, Israel and Iran enjoyed good relations during the Shah's time. It made sense for the two non-Arab nations in the ME to enjoy good relations. Rabin said at the outbreak of the 1979 revolution that "Iran is Israel's best friend and we do not intend to change our position in relation to Tehran, because Khomeini's regime will not last forever". 38 years later and things didn't quite turn out that way.

    Another interesting fact was that in the late 70s, the Shah had concluded a huge military deal for the import of the new F-16s with the US. The jets was due to be delivered by the end of the 1970s, but then the revolution took place and the US cancelled the deal. Shortly after, Saddam invaded Iran. If the revolution was delayed by even one year the war arguably would never have occurred.

    On that note, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe (a British-Iranian citizen), who was in the news today re: Boris Johnson's blunder, is being held by Iran as a pawn (unofficially) in a dispute between Iran and the UK over a similarly cancelled contract for the import of Chieftain tanks from Britain, and the compensation Iran argues the UK owes.

    But I digress.
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    (Original post by Palmyra)
    Why do Palestinians revere Saddam so highly?

    The Sunni states have sold you out and ally with Israel now, whilst Iran is your only real ally these days (still supporting Hamas despite their opposition to Assad), and you morons revere Saddam (who gassed and killed hundreds of thousands of Iranians)?

    Kind of makes me care less about the inevitable success of Israel’s ethnostate ambitions.
    for that, I cannot answer your question. I do know that many right wing in palestine ( which is very few) praise sadda for his high power, but the left disregard many countries as there is not much to many international communication outside Palestine. but again I don't know.
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    Israel's a murderous land stealing state and the Jews use their influence in the US & West to further their Middle East agenda

    It may be offensive to say but it's pretty well documented that is what is going on.
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    (Original post by Palmyra)
    Indeed. A peaceful referendum in Crimea merits sanctions and outrage, but the violent blocking of a referendum in Catalonia is ignored.
    While you have something of a point, I'd say it was bloodless rather than "peaceful" - there were the Russian "little green men" de facto occupying the place, after all. That said, the Russian nationalists/separatists would like have still won a fair referendum, unlike the blatant farce in Donbass.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    While you have something of a point, I'd say it was bloodless rather than "peaceful" - there were the Russian "little green men" de facto occupying the place, after all. That said, the Russian nationalists/separatists would like have still won a fair referendum, unlike the blatant farce in Donbass.
    1) there were violent clashes in Ukraine prior to that
    2) no evidence the local residents were scared of the LGM - indeed, many took selfies with them instead and there were no reported clashes with the LGM, so I’m sceptical of the effect they had on the vote
    3) i concede that russia’s actions were clearly in violation of international law and their pleaded justifications don’t change that
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    (Original post by Liz1919)
    i just wanted to ask if you don't mind. what made you convert to islam and what inspired you to convert. I am a british- pakistani sunni muslim myself.
    I started studying the Quran when i came to this country and was especially interested in the life of Muhammad (saw). I also studied the hadith and saw many verses that talked about different topics such as war and how peace is always valued and how when i visited the mosque to learn more.Instead of telling me about all Islam, they told me about my beliefs and told me how they believed on the contrary.

    I saw Muslims in Palestine and how they treated each other. They gave money to scavengers when they were poor themselves, they didn't care. When u asked them why, they always referred to Islam. Thats why i converted.
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    (Original post by Westham315)
    Hamas only acts in self defence towards israel while Israel sends across rockets for no reason. Hamas rockets are not even a match for the US made rockets shot by israel.
    I volunteer with refugees and one Lebanese gentleman who was force leave because Hamas thugs wanted to murder him. He show me the letter that Hamas wrote telling him he would be killed.

    Hamas is nothing but hateful terrorist organization that does nothing to help the Palestinians or any one else. By the way I have no respect or sympathy for any parent who teaches their children to hate and are willing to kill their own children by sending them to throw rock at the Israeli Army
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    (Original post by looloo2134)
    I volunteer with refugees we and one Lebanese gentleman who was force leave because Hamas thugs wanted to murder him. He show me the letter that Hamas wrote telling him he would be killed.

    Hamas is nothing but hateful terrorist organization that does nothing to help the Palestinians or any one else. By the I have no respect or sympathy for any parent who teaches their children to hate and are willing to kill their own children by sending them to throw rock at the Israeli Army
    For Hamas, i am not surprised they are corrupt. But the children who throw rocks, half of them are orphans and some of them (i was one of them) their parents were not aware that they join protests. But on behalf on my country,I am sorry for the threats given.
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    (Original post by Westham315)
    What your opinion on the conflict. Please stay away from arguments and respect peoples opinions, whatever country they support. I am Palestinian myself. i am a sunni muslim and i used to be a orthodox Christian . My name used to be Barak. I just wanted to see peoples opinion on the countries.

    THANKS

    Siraj
    Zionists regard Palestine as part of Greater Israel.
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    (Original post by Westham315)
    I started studying the Quran when i came to this country and was especially interested in the life of Muhammad (saw). I also studied the hadith and saw many verses that talked about different topics such as war and how peace is always valued and how when i visited the mosque to learn more.Instead of telling me about all Islam, they told me about my beliefs and told me how they believed on the contrary.

    I saw Muslims in Palestine and how they treated each other. They gave money to scavengers when they were poor themselves, they didn't care. When u asked them why, they always referred to Islam. Thats why i converted.
    Thank you
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    (Original post by Napp)
    In theory not a bad idea at all, the practicalities of it i find dubious unfortunately.
    The nationalist right wing israelis feel the land in the west bank is ordained by god to be theirs and sod anyone living on it. Alas it stems from the creation of creation of israel where people like A. Aaronsohn went on record as saying the indigenous arabs needed to be removed and replaced with the jews.
    One argument i always found deeply saddening was when they said that Palestine was but a barren waste land before it was pinched and as they have now turned it into the land of milk and honey they have proved they are more deserving, its a terribly depressing and fallacious arguement.
    Great solution, however, neither side would be ready for that.

    (Original post by Westham315)
    My father was killed while i was at school. He was a very quiet man, he never got involved in protests. He finished work In Gaza, he worked as a baker and was going home.He was in the middle of the protest on the streets of Gaza and was trying to get though to go home. He had to go through the front to get through. An Israeli pushed him with a riot shield and started beating him. He laid unconscious and a man called abdullah tried to help him. By the time they got him a doctor, he died as the pig hit him the head(temple), he died.

    I got home and he was not there.I searched for him for 2 hours.I found someone and they told me my dad was being treated. When i got there, a white cloth was over him.I went into shock and blanked out.I woke up the next day and the man, Abdullah explained to me what happened. I could eat for 2 days or speak, I didn't even get to say goodbye to my dad. When he sent me to school that day, the final thing he always said was "shine,Shine bright". I keep the very words round me on a necklace till this day.

    May he rest in peace forever. Thats why im determined for a free Palestine so everyone can shine.
    *hugs* I am so sorry about your dad. I am happy though that you grew up to be a kind person despite the hate. I am glad you acknowledge that people are overall good and want peace, just the political system is causing the war and teaching war and hate.
    I was witnessing too many incidents where Israel overuse their power against Palestinians through my two years of service in the IDF, I can understand where your (and other kind Palestinians) hate is coming from. I grew up in a mixed town and I know that co-existence is possible.
    *hugs again*

    (Original post by Westham315)
    Hamas only acts in self defence towards israel while Israel sends across rockets for no reason. Hamas rockets are not even a match for the US made rockets shot by israel.
    Not 100% accurate claim. There is always a reason, not always serious enough from both sides to any reaction like firing rockets or bombing homes, but there is always a reason for any action.
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    The forcible creation of the State of Israel in the way it was, was a mistake. However, it is a mistake that now must be lived with in some way.

    Israel must be made to withdraw to its internationally mandated 1948 borders and all settlements removed.
    A recognised Palestinian state should be established, with sufficient international aid programmes to enable it to establish itself as a functioning democracy.
    All paramilitary groups must disband and disarm.
    All claims by either side to any part of the other's territory under the newly established borders to be given up.
    All surrounding states must keep out of the business of both Israel and Palestine, and fully recognise both states.
    Border controls and peacekeeping to initially be undertaken by the UN.

    Or something like that.
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    (Original post by Westham315)
    Hamas only acts in self defence towards israel while Israel sends across rockets for no reason. Hamas rockets are not even a match for the US made rockets shot by israel.
    Simply not true. Both sides regularly take unjustified aggressive action against non-combatants.

    BTW, have you read the Hamas Charter?
    Article 13 has an interesting passage that you might not be aware of...
    "There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility."
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    (Original post by Westham315)
    What your opinion on the conflict. Please stay away from arguments and respect peoples opinions, whatever country they support. I am Palestinian myself. i am a sunni muslim and i used to be a orthodox Christian . My name used to be Barak. I just wanted to see peoples opinion on the countries.

    THANKS

    Siraj
    You should have put a poll up.
    It's a bit misleading though because some posters are going to have natural bias.
    More interesting to find out what the non muslim, non jewish posters think.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Simply not true. Both sides regularly take unjustified aggressive action against non-combatants.
    It is worth baring in mind though the proportionality of the action taken, firing a small unguided rockets which rarely make it to populated areas is hardly comparable to the saturation bombing tactics the IDF use...
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    (Original post by Napp)
    It is worth baring in mind though the proportionality of the action taken, firing a small unguided rockets which rarely make it to populated areas is hardly comparable to the saturation bombing tactics the IDF use...
    I agree that when Hamas fire unguided rockets into populated Israeli areas, the IDF often retaliates with disproportionate force. And the people who suffer most are the ordinary Palistinians, not Hamas. Which Hamas is aware of and doesn't seem overly bothered about.
    So yes, it is worth bearing in mind that the actual participants in the fighting on both sides are callous *******s who seem to have little consideration for the suffering of ordinary Palistinians caught in the middle, who just want to get on with their lives in peace.

    BTW, whilst they are no angels, the IDF do not conduct saturation bombing.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    I agree that when Hamas fire unguided rockets into populated Israeli areas, the IDF often retaliates with disproportionate force. And the people who suffer most are the ordinary Palistinians, not Hamas. Which Hamas is aware of and doesn't seem overly bothered about.
    So yes, it is worth bearing in mind that the actual participants in the fighting on both sides are callous *******s who seem to have little consideration for the suffering of ordinary Palistinians caught in the middle, who just want to get on with their lives in peace.

    BTW, whilst they are no angels, the IDF do not conduct saturation bombing.
    Indeed, I think we can agree on that.

    I was talking to someone who works with Palestinians in Lebanon and he did raise a rather good point regarding the allegations of deliberately firing at Israeli civilians, whilst he didn't deny they fired at civilians he did note that due to israels size it is near enough impossible to not hit a civilian structure whilst aiming at military targets. An example would be the Dimona nuclear facility being threatened by Hizbollah
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    (Original post by Napp)
    Indeed, I think we can agree on that.

    I was talking to someone who works with Palestinians in Lebanon and he did raise a rather good point regarding the allegations of deliberately firing at Israeli civilians, whilst he didn't deny they fired at civilians he did note that due to israels size it is near enough impossible to not hit a civilian structure whilst aiming at military targets. An example would be the Dimona nuclear facility being threatened by Hizbollah
    Why are people care about civilians deaths the true innocent victims of human conflict are animals
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    (Original post by QE2)
    The forcible creation of the State of Israel in the way it was, was a mistake. However, it is a mistake that now must be lived with in some way.

    Israel must be made to withdraw to its internationally mandated 1948 borders and all settlements removed.
    A recognised Palestinian state should be established, with sufficient international aid programmes to enable it to establish itself as a functioning democracy.
    All paramilitary groups must disband and disarm.
    All claims by either side to any part of the other's territory under the newly established borders to be given up.
    All surrounding states must keep out of the business of both Israel and Palestine, and fully recognise both states.
    Border controls and peacekeeping to initially be undertaken by the UN.

    Or something like that.
    Sure, it's easy enough to come up with a solution, but there is no way in hell Israel would accept a solution which gives them less land than they currently have.
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    (Original post by Chaz254)
    Sure, it's easy enough to come up with a solution, but there is no way in hell Israel would accept a solution which gives them less land than they currently have.
    Indeed. And when you consider Article 13 from the Hamas Charter...
    "There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility."

    It seems unlikely that there will ever be a peaceful solution until one or both sides wise the **** up.
 
 
 
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