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Welsh politician found dead; named in the British harassment scandal Watch

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    A senior Welsh politician has been found dead shortly after being named in the harassment scandal sweeping British politics.

    Carl Sergeant, until recently a minister in the devolved Welsh Assembly, was found dead on Tuesday.

    He had been sacked after unspecified allegations about his "personal conduct."

    More info will be coming out soon as this is a breaking news story.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-41904161

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/welsh-...edium=referral
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    desperately sad for his family & friends.
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    (Original post by the bear)
    desperately sad for his family & friends.
    Devastating. :sad:
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    Whats worse is that the allegations at this point may well be false. And if they are, those allegations haven't just destroyed a man's career, but his life and his family and so much more people who were close to Carl.

    Not to undermine any true cases like this out there, but just my 2 cents on this.
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    RIP. So sad that people end up killing themselves
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    I've just read elsewhere that he wasn't even allowed to know the full allegations.
    Title IX comes to the Labour Party.
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    The key thing about these allegations is that they were kept from him. The women made them on condition of secrecy and were facilitated in that by the leadership. Natural justice cannot operate under those circumstances, and it brings the allegations under immediate suspicion (even if they were actually true) and certainly calls Carwyn Jones into question for the way he dealt with it. This death is on him.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-41908424
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    (Original post by Killerpenguin15)
    Whats worse is that the allegations at this point may well be false. And if they are, those allegations haven't just destroyed a man's career, but his life and his family and so much more people who were close to Carl.

    Not to undermine any true cases like this out there, but just my 2 cents on this.
    This is a reasonable point, but if the allegations were proven false then he would have been reinstated to the party after the enquiry was finished and been publicly apologised to, so it wouldn't be the end of his career forever. Dreadful as his death is, it almost seems like an admission of guilt. Feel terrible for his family either way
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    In times like this I honestly don't know what to feel.

    Sad for his death, and for his family?

    Angry at the continuing proof Carwyn Jones needs looking at? (I might be biased as a PC voter, but I think this is still valid...)

    Both?
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    (Original post by Etoile)
    This is a reasonable point, but if the allegations were proven false then he would have been reinstated to the party after the enquiry was finished and been publicly apologised to, so it wouldn't be the end of his career forever.
    I think that's a fanciful notion. Even if proven false, there's a stigma that would forever be attached to someone who's gone through that.

    The fact the party line is to automatically suspend someone is what attaches the aura of guilt to it.

    Innocent until proven guilty is the law of the land. Unless you're in the public eye...
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    (Original post by Etoile)
    This is a reasonable point, but if the allegations were proven false then he would have been reinstated to the party after the enquiry was finished and been publicly apologised to, so it wouldn't be the end of his career forever. Dreadful as his death is, it almost seems like an admission of guilt. Feel terrible for his family either way
    I certainly agree that his death, to an extent, probably was an admission of guilt, though I wouldn't hold my breath until they've made a full enquiry into his suicide per se. If the allegations were proven false I'd like to think Carl would be invited back to the party but he would most likely turn it down as even false allegations like this can have a long lasting impact on someone's reputation. I hope this sends a strong message to those who think about falsifying claims like this also.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    I think that's a fanciful notion. Even if proven false, there's a stigma that would forever be attached to someone who's gone through that.

    The fact the party line is to automatically suspend someone is what attaches the aura of guilt to it.

    Innocent until proven guilty is the law of the land. Unless you're in the public eye...
    Politicians have bounced back from plenty of things - look at Keith Vaz or Bill Clinton! Suspension isn't calling someone guilty, it's sensible protocol for any public servant accused of a crime while the enquiry takes place. If my AM or MP was accused of anything even non sex-crime-related (e.g. fraud, ABH) I'd think it proportional for them to step down temporarily until the proceedings were done. It's not really a question of being in the public eye either, it's a question of being elected by the public to represent and serve them and being held to a certain standard of behaviour for that - which Fallon recognised.

    (Original post by Killerpenguin15)
    I certainly agree that his death, to an extent, probably was an admission of guilt, though I wouldn't hold my breath until they've made a full enquiry into his suicide per se. If the allegations were proven false I'd like to think Carl would be invited back to the party but he would most likely turn it down as even false allegations like this can have a long lasting impact on someone's reputation. I hope this sends a strong message to those who think about falsifying claims like this also.
    My concern is that this might put legitimate victims off from coming forward as I've seen a lot of morons on twitter essentially saying "look what women have done now". Sex crimes are already very under-reported and false claims are so rare.
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    (Original post by Etoile)
    I'd think it proportional for them to step down temporarily until the proceedings were done.
    But that is not what happened, is it? He was suspended form the party, pending the investigation, but sacked from his job as a minister. He was not told what the allegations were. Carwyn Jones has acted as judge, jury and executioner, with no process at all - anonymous, unspecific allegations and sacked. The very definition of an unjust witch hunt.

    The Labour party appears to be an excellent place to easily nobble your political opponents at the moment.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    But that is not what happened, is it? He was suspended form the party, pending the investigation, but sacked from his job as a minister. He was not told what the allegations were. Carwyn Jones has acted as judge, jury and executioner, with no process at all - anonymous, unspecific allegations and sacked. The very definition of an unjust witch hunt.

    The Labour party appears to be an excellent place to easily nobble your political opponents at the moment.
    Well you can't be a minister while suspended from the party so I don't know what you expected them to do in that situation? They could have reinstated him as minister if he had been found innocent since reshuffles happen all the time. I also don't see how he could not have been told what the allegations were if they had been brought to the police and not just the party - it's the law that the police have to tell you what you're suspected of doing. If they weren't brought to the police then yes the party was clearly in the wrong but it makes his death all the more strange since for all he knew the allegations might not have been very severe at all. I certainly wouldn't call it a witch hunt - I hadn't even heard of him before his death so it's not like the tabloids were wiping the floor with him and procedure was being followed.
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    (Original post by Etoile)
    Politicians have bounced back from plenty of things - look at Keith Vaz or Bill Clinton! Suspension isn't calling someone guilty, it's sensible protocol for any public servant accused of a crime while the enquiry takes place
    Carrying on working is not the same as no longer having the air of suspicion. While the two you cite, and others, have indeed gone back to work after an incident, every time their name is mentioned it carries with it an accusation, a reminder of the story, a reminder of the accusations. Even if they were proven false. That's not being free.

    And no, I disagree. Stepping down, being asked or told to step down, is someone else saying they have no confidence in you, that they believe you're guilty. That's not due process.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    But that is not what happened, is it? He was suspended form the party, pending the investigation, but sacked from his job as a minister. He was not told what the allegations were. Carwyn Jones has acted as judge, jury and executioner, with no process at all - anonymous, unspecific allegations and sacked. The very definition of an unjust witch hunt.

    The Labour party appears to be an excellent place to easily nobble your political opponents at the moment.
    We have not quite reached the desperate situation which prevailed in Stalinist Russia, but we have moved significantly in that direction in the last few decades.
    The presumption of innocence and trial by jury are beginning to look like as quaint as The Divine Right of Kings & trial by combat.
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    (Original post by Etoile)
    I also don't see how he could not have been told what the allegations were if they had been brought to the police.
    They weren't, as I understand it. The police were not involved.
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    A case of how unjust the UK sexual assault and rape laws' premise is unfair to men.

    The premise is "assumed guilty until proven innocent".
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    (Original post by the bear)
    We have not quite reached the desperate situation which prevailed in Stalinist Russia, but we have moved significantly in that direction in the last few decades.
    The presumption of innocence and trial by jury are beginning to look like as quaint as The Divine Right of Kings & trial by combat.
    We have certainly reached a point where a male politician can be accused of behaviour that is not illegal or even immoral, but which was not liked by someone, leading to anonymous, confidential accusations which lead straight to the sack.

    This is puritanism gone mad, and has actually developed from so-called liberalism. We are back in the sixteenth century.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    We have certainly reached a point where a male politician can be accused of behaviour that is not illegal or even immoral, but which was not liked by someone, leading to anonymous, confidential accusations which lead straight to the sack.

    This is puritanism gone mad, and has actually developed from so-called liberalism. We are back in the sixteenth century.
    there is nothing new under the sun

    :emo:
 
 
 
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