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Liberals in bed with fascists?! Watch

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    (Original post by Arran90)
    If (social) liberalism declines in many EU countries and the popular opinion becomes dominated by nationalism, xenophobia, social conservative values, anti-immigration, and anti-Islam then these countries will become dissimilar bedfellows for the Lib-Dems. It has even been argued over the years that liberalism is a very British political ideology with patchy public support for it across continental Europe.
    Your reasoning makes no sense.

    If anything, the UK staying in the EU would contribute to making it more liberal. It doesn't make sense to leave because the EU could one day become dominated by xenophobia, anti-immigration sentiment or nationalism (the latter would be oxymoronic if not antithetic). We don't know the future, but the EU is currently as liberal as it gets in the world (perhaps only Canada is better).

    I believe that extremism/authoritarianism is rising worldwide. Brexit has been fueled by xenophobia and anti-immigration sentiment and is by definition a nationalist act, so I wouldn't depict it as a way to keep liberal Britain safe from the barbaric nationalists that surround it.

    Europe, including the UK, has very good reasons to be wary of Islam and migration from outside Schengen.
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    (Original post by Findacure)
    Lets break it down for you

    1. Syrians are flooding Europe as soon as a country grants them asylum they can apply for a passport- then we can not stop them from coming to the UK until article 50 expires.
    2. ISIS threatened to flood Europe with some 500,000 activists
    3. All the refugees in Europe are mainly millitary aged men- lack of women and children- some of the child refugees we have let in are double my age ( Thats a different story)
    4. North African nations such as Libya and Morroco are getting into boats travelling 2-3 miles out of the coast making a may day call and getting a taxi service to Palermo in Italy from charity aid workers NGO and EU vessells (https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/04/...ple-smugglers/) They need to be taken to the nearest port in Tunisia not Palermo
    5.They get into Europe and this is when the terror begins, it is not public knowledge but Sweden have had 15+ bomb attacks within the last month non of them publicised by the mainstream media.

    Hope that helps you.
    Gaining asylum and citizenship and two completely different things, it takes years to gain the latter and you have to be a upstanding citizen to do it.

    ISIS also threatened to reconquer Al-Andalus. I wouldn't take everything they say seriously if I were you.

    Libya is ****ed but we also share some culpability for that. The only way to solve that is to help them establish a stable government there.
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    (Original post by VirgoStrain)
    Sinn Fein doesn’t take its seats in Parliament, you absolute ****ing moron.

    Also, I’m bemused about how you have totally different goalposts for extremism on the right and left. Merely supporting remaining in the EU qualifies me as a fascist apparently.
    Sinn Fein still win seats- they may not take them but they still win their seats.

    Opposing democracy and being a fascist are two separate concepts

    fascism is using force like Hitler did by effectively banning the Nazi's opponents. The EU is more of a democratic dictatorship here is what I mean;

    You and I elect our MEP's to represent us- so far so good.

    Our votes for these people are meaningless- they have even less power than the House of Lords, instead of British MEP's, voting on British EU laws the whole assembly does meaning we get outvoted every single time- therefore it isn't a proper democracy- when something enters EU law there is no going back unless you leave, therefore the EU waters down your sovereignty and undermines your democracy
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Gaining asylum and citizenship and two completely different things, it takes years to gain the latter and you have to be a upstanding citizen to do it.

    ISIS also threatened to reconquer Al-Andalus. I wouldn't take everything they say seriously if I were you.

    Libya is ****ed but we also share some culpability for that. The only way to solve that is to help them establish a stable government there.
    Libyans should be taken to the next port, I don't care if we destabilised them.

    Look at Sweden and Germany and parts of France i think you can say some ISIS members are in Europe as "refugees" the libyans are economic migrants though.
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    (Original post by Findacure)
    Lets break it down for you

    1. Syrians are flooding Europe as soon as a country grants them asylum they can apply for a passport- then we can not stop them from coming to the UK until article 50 expires.
    2. ISIS threatened to flood Europe with some 500,000 activists
    3. All the refugees in Europe are mainly millitary aged men- lack of women and children- some of the child refugees we have let in are double my age ( Thats a different story)
    4. North African nations such as Libya and Morroco are getting into boats travelling 2-3 miles out of the coast making a may day call and getting a taxi service to Palermo in Italy from charity aid workers NGO and EU vessells (https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/04/...ple-smugglers/) They need to be taken to the nearest port in Tunisia not Palermo
    5.They get into Europe and this is when the terror begins, it is not public knowledge but Sweden have had 15+ bomb attacks within the last month non of them publicised by the mainstream media.

    Hope that helps you.
    1] Syrians aren't europeans and aside from being a morally reprehensible position to take this has rather little to do with europe, especially Britain as we arent part of the SZ
    2]ISIS have threatened a lot of things, so what? You know they import people more than they export them right?
    3] Aside from knowing for a fact that thats gross hyperbole so what if they're of military age? That covers everything from 16-50.
    4] I assume you mean nationals not nations? At any rate with particular emphasis on Libyans, as you mentioned them, some would make the rather convincing arguement that after NATO attacked and destroyed Libya as a state they're owed at least a taxi fare' as recompense for the untold misery vested upon them.
    5] Would you kindly provide some sources for that accusation? At any rate I stand by my earlier point that most terrorists arent migrants and refugees but the home grown variety and almost unilaterally second generation ones at that.
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    (Original post by Findacure)
    What's extreme about the DUP?- just because they are anti immigration, abortion and Europe social justice warriors hate them.
    No, every sane and decent person hates them because they oppose abortion even for rape victims, because they're openly homophobic, climate change deniers/skeptics, push creationism, and have terrorist inks.

    It speaks volumes about the desperation of Conservatives to cling to power so they can continue to push their nationalistic agenda.

    (Original post by Findacure)
    one thing is for sure if you are pro-EU you are anti democracy, nation state and national security.
    No. The EU is extremely democratic (Brits just don't understand that, as voter turnout for European elections proves), is highly accepting of the notion of nation states, and is making Europe safer. Do your homework and put aside the Daily Mail.

    (Original post by Findacure)
    Rather them then
    (Original post by Findacure)
    would of still
    *than *would have

    Typical uneducated Brexiteer.
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    (Original post by GenialGermanGent)
    No, every sane and decent person hates them because they oppose abortion even for rape victims, because they're openly homophobic, climate change deniers/skeptics, push creationism, and have terrorist inks.

    It speaks volumes about the desperation of Conservatives to cling to power so they can continue to push their nationalistic agenda.
    I don't seem to remember us having a national discussion where we decided that opposition to killing unborn babies was unacceptable. But it must have happened if "every sane and decent person hates" those who disagree.

    No. The EU is extremely democratic (Brits just don't understand that, as voter turnout for European elections proves), is highly accepting of the notion of nation states, and is making Europe safer. Do your homework and put aside the Daily Mail.
    Jesus, by what standards?! Are you assuming simple voting equals democracy?

    *than *would have

    Typical uneducated Brexiteer.
    You sound like a prick.

    Typical remainer.
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    (Original post by Rinsed)
    I don't seem to remember us having a national discussion where we decided that opposition to killing unborn babies was unacceptable. But it must have happened if "every sane and decent person hates" those who disagree.
    Oh, you did miss that debate. Britain, while seemingly full of uneducated, xenophobic nationalists, is still not quite the bible belt of the US and abortions are indeed legal under most circumstances, with overwhelming support in the population and politics.

    Funny how you ignored the other points I listed. So you support homophobia? Climate change is a hoax? Come on, tell us your views!

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    Jesus, by what standards?! Are you assuming simple voting equals democracy?
    By any standard. The level of knowledge in Britain about how the EU works and how democratic that actually makes it is shockingly low - and you just proved that again.

    My time is too precious to educate you. Read this:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-reality-check
    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/30/w...-that-way.html
    http://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/...d-bureaucrats/
    https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts...ims-democracy/
    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/20...ratic-surplus/

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    You sound like a prick.

    Typical remainer.
    Being able to write correct English (which is a foreign language to me) and putting together a logical and factually correct argument makes me a prick? Ok then. I prefer that over being an uninformed, reactionary neanderthal.
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    (Original post by GenialGermanGent)
    Oh, you did miss that debate. Britain, while seemingly full of uneducated, xenophobic nationalists, is still not quite the bible belt of the US and abortions are indeed legal under most circumstances, with overwhelming support in the population and politics.
    You are conflating several issues. A majority of people support abortion (within limits) in most parts of the UK. Opposition to abortion being unacceptable is something rather different...

    Funny how you ignored the other points I listed. So you support homophobia? Climate change is a hoax? Come on, tell us your views!
    My job isn't to support the DUP. I think they're wrong on some issues and right on others.

    By any standard. The level of knowledge in Britain about how the EU works and how democratic that actually makes it is shockingly low - and you just proved that again.

    My time is too precious to educate you. Read this:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-reality-check
    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/30/w...-that-way.html
    http://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/...d-bureaucrats/
    https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts...ims-democracy/
    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/20...ratic-surplus/
    I am not going to read those items.

    Simple question, how likely is it the 'government' of the EU (if one can be identified) can be ejected by a popular vote? Very, very unlikely. Either the 'government' of the EU is very popular (lol) or democracy was never a key consideration in the founding of the EU's institutions...

    Being able to write correct English (which is a foreign language to me) and putting together a logical and factually correct argument makes me a prick? Ok then. I prefer that over being an uninformed, reactionary neanderthal.
    It does.
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    (Original post by Rinsed)
    You are conflating several issues. A majority of people support abortion (within limits) in most parts of the UK. Opposition to abortion being unacceptable is something rather different...
    No, you are missing the point. Given the huge support for pro-choice ('majority' in 'most' parts doesn't do it justice) -in combination with the other 'deal-breakers'- make the DUP worth despising, let alone taking them seriously as a political party and as part of the government.

    The fact that you single out this one point from the wonderful bouquet of disgusting extremist positions is highly irritating and definitely not conducive to the credibility of any other points you want to make.

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    My job isn't to support the DUP. I think they're wrong on some issues and right on others.
    You did pretty badly in your last post then, sounding like a radical conservative denying rape victims an abortion (and therefore likely condoning all other wacko DUP positions).

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    I am not going to read those items.
    Pity, you would have profited tremendously from it.

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    Simple question, how likely is it the 'government' of the EU (if one can be identified) can be ejected by a popular vote? Very, very unlikely. Either the 'government' of the EU is very popular (lol) or democracy was never a key consideration in the founding of the EU's institutions...
    Define 'ejected'. A violent overthrow? That wouldn't be possible in the UK either. For the EU, you elect representatives, who elect/come with a leader/leadership group. Same principle as in most parliamentary democracies. You pretty much know what you get when you elect certain people.

    The government of the EU is actually decently popular outside of Britain (again, your lack of perspective speaking), and democracy not having been a key consideration (which is debatable itself) doesn't mean that it's undemocratic.
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    (Original post by GenialGermanGent)
    No, you are missing the point. Given the huge support for pro-choice ('majority' in 'most' parts doesn't do it justice) -in combination with the other 'deal-breakers'- make the DUP worth despising, let alone taking them seriously as a political party and as part of the government.
    The fact that the DUP gets the most votes and seats in Northern Ireland makes them a serious political party. Further, they are hardly the only party in Northern Ireland which opposes abortion, which is unpopular in that region.

    The fact that you single out this one point from the wonderful bouquet of disgusting extremist positions is highly irritating and definitely not conducive to the credibility of any other points you want to make.
    That is a long sentence.

    You did pretty badly in your last post then, sounding like a radical conservative denying rape victims an abortion (and therefore likely condoning all other wacko DUP positions).
    Children of rape are people too.

    I don't actually oppose abortion, but I definably don't think it's wacko to the extent anyone who wants to discuss it is evil.

    Pity, you would have profited tremendously from it.
    I doubt that.

    Be honest, if I threw a bunch of Spectator articles at you, would you read them?

    Define 'ejected'. A violent overthrow? That wouldn't be possible in the UK either. For the EU, you elect representatives, who elect/come with a leader/leadership group. Same principle as in most parliamentary democracies. You pretty much know what you get when you elect certain people.

    The government of the EU is actually decently popular outside of Britain (again, your lack of perspective speaking), and democracy not having been a key consideration (which is debatable itself) doesn't mean that it's undemocratic.
    Your arguments can come across as slightly unhinged.

    In a functioning democracy you can (and normally do) have frequent changes of government. With the EU the same cabal of grandees and bureaucrats are always in power, no matter how great dissatisfaction around Europe grows.The EU centralises power away from the peoples of Europe to the extent that it is basically a key principle.
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    The true extremists and fundamentalists tend to sit right in the middle where they can create the right and the left. They sit safely in the middle where they can co-ordinate the wings. From the middle they send out their agent provocateurs to hide as feathers in both of the wings where they recruit the ignorant with their meaningless philosophy. Their mindset is, Why be a feather on a wing of a bird when you can be the head and the eyes, which see and control the direction which the wings will take you? May - Corbyn, Trump - Hillary, Brexit - Remain (although Remain is where they hide), Black lives matter - Don't tread on me. It's all an engineered plot with the aim of categorising a certain mindset of people so they can be identified as extremists and then removed. First they had to identify what the extremes are, before they can label who the extremists are. This they are doing right now.
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    (Original post by usualsuspects)
    If anything, the UK staying in the EU would contribute to making it more liberal.
    Not as much as kicking out countries in eastern Europe. Hint: count the seats in the European Parliament.

    I believe that extremism/authoritarianism is rising worldwide. Brexit has been fueled by xenophobia and anti-immigration sentiment and is by definition a nationalist act, so I wouldn't depict it as a way to keep liberal Britain safe from the barbaric nationalists that surround it.
    British Nationalism has its ups and downs but white Nationalism or pan-European Nationalism is a very rare viewpoint in Britain and is higher in some countries in Continental Europe.
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    (Original post by Arran90)
    Not as much as kicking out countries in eastern Europe. Hint: count the seats in the European Parliament.



    British Nationalism has its ups and downs but white Nationalism or pan-European Nationalism is a very rare viewpoint in Britain and is higher in some countries in Continental Europe.
    You lack logic and deal with fiction. I suggest you make more European friends and travel to the continent more often, you'll see many are liberal and eurosceptic.

    I do not wish to continue debating with one who talks of "pan-European nationalism" and "Brexit against nationalism and anti-immigration sentiment". If you don't understand that supporting the EU is the contrary of nationalism and Brexit is fueled by nationalism and anti-immigration sentiment, then you are not capable of sustaining a proper debate.
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    (Original post by Rinsed)
    The fact that the DUP gets the most votes and seats in Northern Ireland makes them a serious political party. Further, they are hardly the only party in Northern Ireland which opposes abortion, which is unpopular in that region.
    Again, you are disregarding the bigger picture, focusing on aspects that fit your thin narrative. Their stance on abortion, repulsive and unrepresentative of the people of Britain and Europe as a whole as it is, is clearly not the only issue here. And only because a bunch of neanderthals vote for a party doesn't make them a respectable one.

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    That is a long sentence.
    And a true one that you clearly have nothing to respond to. But I get it, I'll use shorter sentences for you Leavers from now on...

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    Children of rape are people too.
    If you want to spew undifferentiated slogans, I'll go with this one: Not until birth. And naturally you are disregarding the situation of the mother.

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    I don't actually oppose abortion, but I definably don't think it's wacko to the extent anyone who wants to discuss it is evil.
    That sentence doesn't make sense. And what's 'definably'?

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    I doubt that.

    Be honest, if I threw a bunch of Spectator articles at you, would you read them?
    If I were as ignorant of the facts as you are, of course I would. These articles -by outlets from various positions across the political spectrum- would really teach you something about the Brexiteer fairy tale that is the democracy deficit in the EU.

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    Your arguments can come across as slightly unhinged.

    In a functioning democracy you can (and normally do) have frequent changes of government. With the EU the same cabal of grandees and bureaucrats are always in power, no matter how great dissatisfaction around Europe grows.The EU centralises power away from the peoples of Europe to the extent that it is basically a key principle.
    Funny; ALL your arguments can come across as ignorant.

    Just because you have a new government every other year in the banana republic that is Britain doesn't mean that that should be the case everywhere. Leadership in the EU tends to be more stable than in some nation states but that is a good thing, given the magnitude and time horizon of EU projects.

    Again, dissatisfaction with the EU in general -and its level of democracy in particular- is really a British thing. You need to get out more, buddy! But then you don't speak a second language, right?
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    (Original post by GenialGermanGent)
    Again, you are disregarding the bigger picture, focusing on aspects that fit your thin narrative. Their stance on abortion, repulsive and unrepresentative of the people of Britain and Europe as a whole as it is, is clearly not the only issue here. And only because a bunch of neanderthals vote for a party doesn't make them a respectable one.
    I don't think it's completely unreasonable to point out that they represent their particular constituency. Moreover, that position is the law in Norther Ireland. I do think those items accord them a certain degree of respect.

    And anyway yes, I do think it's a respectable position. It's not one I hold but you overplay your hand far too much. The people of Britain support abortion, in the main, but not in all cases. Some polls show majority support for reducing the time limit, for instance, so clearly the idea that a child is a child before birth is not completely beyond the pale. We're really talking a matter of degree.

    And a true one that you clearly have nothing to respond to. But I get it, I'll use shorter sentences for you Leavers from now on...
    To be honest I don't really see there was a point to respond to. You were just ranting about how terrible I am. You have a peculiar habit of resorting to insults rather than forming counterarguments.

    If you want to spew undifferentiated slogans, I'll go with this one: Not until birth. And naturally you are disregarding the situation of the mother.
    Few people believe that a child isn't really a child until birth, which is why pretty much everywhere places legal limits on abortion.

    That sentence doesn't make sense. And what's 'definably'?
    I mistyped definitely, but definably actually is a word and, to be honest, it was just an intensifier. The sentence made sense with or without either word. Who's focusing on minutiae now?

    If I were as ignorant of the facts as you are, of course I would. These articles -by outlets from various positions across the political spectrum- would really teach you something about the Brexiteer fairy tale that is the democracy deficit in the EU.
    I mean, you sourced the Grauniad, hardly the pinnacle of moderate journalism. The NY Times has published some shockingly biased hit-pieces against Britain recently. The LSE article is written by an EU bureaucrat. If you want to argue the point then I'm all ears, but just throwing pro-EU literature around makes it sound like you have nothing to say.

    Funny; ALL your arguments can come across as ignorant.

    Just because you have a new government every other year in the banana republic that is Britain doesn't mean that that should be the case everywhere. Leadership in the EU tends to be more stable than in some nation states but that is a good thing, given the magnitude and time horizon of EU projects.
    You obviously regard every argument you disagree with as ignorant. But actually that's mainly just representative of your inability to consider arguments outside your narrow worldview.

    Britain is far from the only country where dissatisfaction with the EU is high and, even where support for the EU remains strong, support for the institutions in Brussels are exclusively lower.

    I also disagree that stability over such a long timescale is a good thing. Democracy means the people need to be able to give the political class a good kicking from time to time. China has a very stable government, but I'd take our somewhat raucous politics over theirs every day of the week.

    The EU is bureaucratic, sclerotic and arguably corrupt. It reeks of corporatism, its auditors won't sign off its accounts and it refuses to publish details of parliamentary expenses because the scrutiny "might make it difficult for them to do their jobs". Competitiveness and cost-efficiency are words they barely understand. If a national government were this poorly run the people who ran it would have had to up their game long ago, or they'd have been kicked out of office. No, I do not think the democratic deficit is fictional nor trivial.

    Again, dissatisfaction with the EU in general -and its level of democracy in particular- is really a British thing. You need to get out more, buddy! But then you don't speak a second language, right?
    Not that it's relevant, because I'd rather be intelligent in one language than foolish in many, but for what it's worth I speak not-terrible German (or did, I'm rather out of practice). Also basic French, and I've lived outside Britain. If you're looking for a typical little-Englander, I am not he. Your attitude speaks more to your own prejudices than anything else.

    I think Germany is a wonderful country, by the way, I just don't understand why thinking that that means I should want to be ruled by Brussels.
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    (Original post by usualsuspects)
    I do not wish to continue debating with one who talks of "pan-European nationalism" and "Brexit against nationalism and anti-immigration sentiment". If you don't understand that supporting the EU is the contrary of nationalism and Brexit is fueled by nationalism and anti-immigration sentiment, then you are not capable of sustaining a proper debate.
    Refer to post #5. Experience is that liberals chicken out of debates that they are losing then accuse (or almost defame) their opponent as being a fascist.

    There were some white Nationalists who voted Remain. They see the future of Europe as a single nation of white culturally European people. United white Europeans stand and divided they fall.
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    (Original post by Arran90)
    Refer to post #5. Experience is that liberals chicken out of debates that they are losing then accuse (or almost defame) their opponent as being a fascist.

    There were some white Nationalists who voted Remain. They see the future of Europe as a single nation of white culturally European people. United white Europeans stand and divided they fall.
    White is not a nation.
    The EU is not a nation.
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    (Original post by usualsuspects)
    White is not a nation.
    The EU is not a nation.
    Their vision is for the EU countries to combine into a single nation for white European people only.
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    (Original post by Rinsed)
    I don't think it's completely unreasonable to point out that they represent their particular constituency. Moreover, that position is the law in Norther Ireland. I do think those items accord them a certain degree of respect.
    Yes, a small, apparently rather homophobic, backwards-thinking constituency that -again- is in no way representative of the people of Britain who now are co-governed by these extremists.

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    And anyway yes, I do think it's a respectable position. It's not one I hold but you overplay your hand far too much. The people of Britain support abortion, in the main, but not in all cases. Some polls show majority support for reducing the time limit, for instance, so clearly the idea that a child is a child before birth is not completely beyond the pale. We're really talking a matter of degree.
    No, there is an overwhelming pro-choice majority in Britain. Far from a discussion on degree and nuances. You clearly have no idea what is going on in your own country.
    And, once again, you are disregarding all the other whacko positions of the DUP that should disqualify it from any meaningful political participation at state level.

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    To be honest I don't really see there was a point to respond to. You were just ranting about how terrible I am. You have a peculiar habit of resorting to insults rather than forming counterarguments.
    Oh, but of course you see a point there, you just have absolutely nothing to respond because you (and everyone reading this) know I am right - or are you denying that you desperately keep harking on about abortion while your silence on homophobia, creationism, climate change skepticism/denial, and terrorist links is absolutely deafening? Yeah, I didn't think so.

    But yeah, my sentence did imply that you are a terrible person. And you really, really seem to be, you solidify this with every post.

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    Few people believe that a child isn't really a child until birth, which is why pretty much everywhere places legal limits on abortion.
    Of course. You don't really get sarcasm, do you? I really should've known... but please do read my post again and try to get it this time around.

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    I mistyped definitely, but definably actually is a word and, to be honest, it was just an intensifier. The sentence made sense with or without either word. Who's focusing on minutiae now?
    Not me. I just need you to actually make a point for once and not cloud it with barely-sentences and horrible typos.

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    I mean, you sourced the Grauniad, hardly the pinnacle of moderate journalism. The NY Times has published some shockingly biased hit-pieces against Britain recently. The LSE article is written by an EU bureaucrat. If you want to argue the point then I'm all ears, but just throwing pro-EU literature around makes it sound like you have nothing to say.
    Ah, the typical flawed line of argumentation of a desperate, uneducated, partisan Leaver. Just because an article is by a publication with a clear political orientation that means it can't contain valid points?

    What about the other articles I posted? As I wrote before, I presented you with a nice line-up of articles from outlets with diverse political orientations. Now it's your time to use them and educate yourself so you don't look quite as bad in this discussion as you have so far.

    And referencing the 'Grauniad' is rich for someone with your spelling record...

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    You obviously regard every argument you disagree with as ignorant. But actually that's mainly just representative of your inability to consider arguments outside your narrow worldview.
    No, I consider arguments as ignorant that are demonstrably false, such as yours.

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    Britain is far from the only country where dissatisfaction with the EU is high and, even where support for the EU remains strong, support for the institutions in Brussels are exclusively lower.
    Interesting then that no other country has even come close to holding a referendum on leaving the EU, that anti-EU parties and candidates lost or achieved only minority shares in Austria, the Netherlands, France, and Germany recently.

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    I also disagree that stability over such a long timescale is a good thing. Democracy means the people need to be able to give the political class a good kicking from time to time. China has a very stable government, but I'd take our somewhat raucous politics over theirs every day of the week.
    The fact that you compare an authoritarian regime like China's to the democracy that is the EU wonderfully exhibits your utter lack of political insight and perspective once again.
    If you want to go with this poor example though: China's meteoric economic development is largely due to a very stable government that was able to execute a long-term plan.

    I explained this to you before: the people of Europe do have a strong influence over who has a say in Brussels. It's called European elections. The fact that the people of Britain choose to now make use of this influence does not change the facts. Do put down that copy of the Daily Mail, will you?

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    The EU is bureaucratic, sclerotic and arguably corrupt. It reeks of corporatism, its auditors won't sign off its accounts and it refuses to publish details of parliamentary expenses because the scrutiny "might make it difficult for them to do their jobs".
    Ah, the usual Daily Mail drivel. No proof, no facts, just blind, ignorant resentment borne out of frustration that you're just a little cog in the machine. Well, soon you'll be the same little cog (just with an even smaller economy) outside of the machine. China and the US will laugh in your face when it comes to negotiating trade terms. And your former colonies surely can't wait to intensify trade with you, after decades/centuries of exploitation with the occasional genocide thrown in for good measure. Oh, the humiliation will be so great...

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    If a national government were this poorly run the people who ran it would have had to up their game long ago, or they'd have been kicked out of office.
    Strange then that the EU government hasn't been voted out of office yet through the democratic processes that exist.

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    No, I do not think the democratic deficit is fictional nor trivial.
    Yes, I know you think that. And we can say now that you are demonstrably and objectively wrong. Please do read the articles again.

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    Not that it's relevant, because I'd rather be intelligent in one language than foolish in many, but for what it's worth I speak not-terrible German (or did, I'm rather out of practice). Also basic French, and I've lived outside Britain. If you're looking for a typical little-Englander, I am not he. Your attitude speaks more to your own prejudices than anything else.
    Oh, I think you are THE perfect Little Englander. Uneducated, uninformed, nationalistic, xenophobic - apparently homophobic and condoning terrorism as well. The fact that you (claim to) have lived outside Britain makes your utter ignorance and blind nationalism even more dramatic.

    And I am sorry to inform - you are indeed not intelligent in that one language that you seem to know.

    (Original post by Rinsed)
    I think Germany is a wonderful country, by the way, I just don't understand why thinking that that means I should want to be ruled by Brussels.
    Oh, nobody is being or getting ruled by Brussels. That is your ignorance speaking again. In the EU, you give up some sovereignty, but you get back so much more. We Germans understand how the EU works, that it is a wonderful, unique band of nations united in friendship, willing to help each other out, not only focusing on one's own benefit. And that is why it's so welcome that Britain is finally leaving.

    Britain never understood the EU, and people like you are the result of that. Now you are facing the consequences. You can be sure that we continental Europeans relish seeing your currency and economy tank, hurting your lifetime earnings compared to your European peers to no end. I invite you to read my weekly threads on Brexit in this forum - would enjoy exposing your ignorance there as well.
 
 
 
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