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    (Original post by ecolier)
    I agree with your comment. N/A seems to have just raised a generic "surgeons earn a lot" without any evidence or backing. While surgeons do earn a lot, so do some medics and non-surgical doctors. Plus all doctors (potentially) work long days and varying times of day, and require lots of skills. Not just physicians but people like radiologists, psychiatrists etc - most of them do on-calls out of hours and they need lots of specific skills too.
    (Original post by *pitseleh*)
    So do most physicians. Curious as to why you singled out surgeons?
    I think there's a perception among the general public that surgeons didn't so much choose surgery, but rather their amazing unique Skills became apparent at some point and they were Chosen as one of the few able to truly hold a scalpel.

    As opposed to the reality: 'you've done an audit and presented a poster, congrats here's the knife'.
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    (Original post by ecolier)
    I agree with your comment. N/A seems to have just raised a generic "surgeons earn a lot" without any evidence or backing. While surgeons do earn a lot, so do some medics and non-surgical doctors. Plus all doctors (potentially) work long days and varying times of day, and require lots of skills. Not just physicians but people like radiologists, psychiatrists etc - most of them do on-calls out of hours and they need lots of specific skills too.
    Exactly - there are very few specialties that don't involve long and antisocial hours. I think people tend to single out dermatology as one that's mainly clinic based and has very few antisocial hours (and I met a dermatologist recently who said the only time he'd been called out in 25 years of being a consultant was for a chemical burn, that he'd turned up and said 'yes, that's a chemical burn' and let plastics do their thing). But the fact that we single it out as an exception says something about the working conditions in most other specialties.

    (Original post by nexttime)
    I think there's a perception among the general public that surgeons didn't so much choose surgery, but rather their amazing unique Skills became apparent at some point and they were Chosen as one of the few able to truly hold a scalpel.

    As opposed to the reality: 'you've done an audit and presented a poster, congrats here's the knife'.
    Yep. I don't want to bash surgical specialties at all, but I've been in the situation (more than once!) where a patient has suggested that surgery is something you progress to after being a physician, as though most doctors either qualify as a consultant medic and then do extra training to become a surgeon, or they 'just' stay as a medic. No idea where that idea comes from. I've heard something similar suggested about GPs as well - that they're doctors who stopped their training before they became consultants. People have some weird ideas about how specialisation works.
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    (Original post by *pitseleh*)
    Exactly - there are very few specialties that don't involve long and antisocial hours. I think people tend to single out dermatology as one that's mainly clinic based and has very few antisocial hours (and I met a dermatologist recently who said the only time he'd been called out in 25 years of being a consultant was for a chemical burn, that he'd turned up and said 'yes, that's a chemical burn' and let plastics do their thing). But the fact that we single it out as an exception says something about the working conditions in most other specialties.
    Us and dermaholiday (sorry- dermatology) have similar on-call patterns, should we say. We don't participate in general medical on-calls (as a rule, a few do) as part of the curriculum - obviously we can locum as med regs as we all have MRCP (I doubt many would )


    (Original post by *pitseleh*)
    Yep. I don't want to bash surgical specialties at all, but I've been in the situation (more than once!) where a patient has suggested that surgery is something you progress to after being a physician, as though most doctors either qualify as a consultant medic and then do extra training to become a surgeon, or they 'just' stay as a medic. No idea where that idea comes from. I've heard something similar suggested about GPs as well - that they're doctors who stopped their training before they became consultants. People have some weird ideas about how specialisation works.
    It could be something to do with the "Mr / Miss" and "Dr" titles. Our consultants get called "Mr" a lot - even though of course they should be addressed as "Dr". People just do not understand the difference between surgical and medical specialties - many think we are neurosurgeons too... (quite awkward when our working patterns are quite different)
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    (Original post by ecolier)
    Us and dermaholiday (sorry- dermatology) have similar on-call patterns, should we say. We don't participate in general medical on-calls (as a rule, a few do) as part of the curriculum - obviously we can locum as med regs as we all have MRCP (I doubt many would )

    It could be something to do with the "Mr / Miss" and "Dr" titles. Our consultants get called "Mr" a lot - even though of course they should be addressed as "Dr". People just do not understand the difference between surgical and medical specialties - many think we are neurosurgeons too... (quite awkward when our working patterns are quite different)
    Heh, think you're probably right about the titles thing. My other half is planning to go into neuro (currently FY2), and if he mentions it, people will often say something along the lines of 'so you're going to be chopping people's brains up?' :lol:

    And yep, don't think I've ever seen a neuro reg doing a med reg shift. I think maybe rheumatology can go in the dermatology box of few on-calls/antisocial shifts as well..
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    (Original post by *pitseleh*)
    Heh, think you're probably right about the titles thing. My other half is planning to go into neuro (currently FY2), and if he mentions it, people will often say something along the lines of 'so you're going to be chopping people's brains up?' :lol:

    And yep, don't think I've ever seen a neuro reg doing a med reg shift. I think maybe rheumatology can go in the dermatology box of few on-calls/antisocial shifts as well..
    Haha rheumatologists are part of the on-call rota now, sadly we are soon to follow suit (I have escaped!) in 2022/2023. Dermatology is set to be the only big specialty (maybe along with some obscure specialties like allergy medicine / clinical pharmacology?) that will be exempt. There are lots of changes in the future medical (MRCP) training curriculum with 3 year CMT and 4 years specialty training coming up soon. Get your other half to get in ASAP!! (I am assuming he wants to do neurology and not neurosurgery)
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    (Original post by ecolier)
    Us and dermaholiday (sorry- dermatology) have similar on-call patterns, should we say. We don't participate in general medical on-calls (as a rule, a few do) as part of the curriculum - obviously we can locum as med regs as we all have MRCP (I doubt many would )




    It could be something to do with the "Mr / Miss" and "Dr" titles. Our consultants get called "Mr" a lot - even though of course they should be addressed as "Dr". People just do not understand the difference between surgical and medical specialties - many think we are neurosurgeons too... (quite awkward when our working patterns are quite different)
    Oh so that's why dermatology is so competitive lol.....
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    (Original post by manlike99)
    Oh so that's why dermatology is so competitive lol.....
    yes - we are the second most "big" specialty after them. At ST3, dermatology is consistently around 5 to 1. We were 4 to 1 last year and 3.44 to 1 this year. I think a large part is due to the fact that we don't do general medical on-calls.


    https://specialtytraining.hee.nhs.uk/Competition-Ratios for more information!
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    (Original post by ecolier)
    Haha rheumatologists are part of the on-call rota now, sadly we are soon to follow suit (I have escaped!) in 2022/2023. Dermatology is set to be the only big specialty (maybe along with some obscure specialties like allergy medicine / clinical pharmacology?) that will be exempt. There are lots of changes in the future medical (MRCP) training curriculum with 3 year CMT and 4 years specialty training coming up soon. Get your other half to get in ASAP!! (I am assuming he wants to do neurology and not neurosurgery)
    Yeah, even palliative care has gone down the route of being part of the gen med rota now.. though am I right in thinking that for both palliative and rheumatology, you only do it in ST4 rather than throughout your registrar training? I seem to remember being told something weird like that.

    Other half is going down the ACCS route into neuro instead of CMT. I didn't even realise you could do it that way until he mentioned it, but it is an option for now at least!
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    (Original post by ecolier)
    yes - we are the second most "big" specialty after them. At ST3, dermatology is consistently around 5 to 1. We were 4 to 1 last year and 3.44 to 1 this year. I think a large part is due to the fact that we don't do general medical on-calls.


    https://specialtytraining.hee.nhs.uk/Competition-Ratios for more information!
    Interesting, thank you!!... so basically if you wanna go into one of the competitive ones - must do intercalated, publications, audits etc right?
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    (Original post by *pitseleh*)
    Yeah, even palliative care has gone down the route of being part of the gen med rota now.. though am I right in thinking that for both palliative and rheumatology, you only do it in ST4 rather than throughout your registrar training? I seem to remember being told something weird like that.

    Other half is going down the ACCS route into neuro instead of CMT. I didn't even realise you could do it that way until he mentioned it, but it is an option for now at least!
    Yes, so is cardiology actually (unless you want to dual accredit and get a CCT in GIM - general internal medicine). Many specialty only do ST3 and ST4 gen med on-calls. Obviously for elderly care medicine / acute med (!) one will have do it for the whole duration of training.

    Training via ACCS will mean that it will take one more year - CMT is currently still only 2 years, but ACCS is 3 years - that would mean he would have taken one more year. Sure he doesn't want to re-consider? (Plus I think CMT is compulsory for neurology? I would have to check. MRCP definitely is)
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    (Original post by manlike99)
    Interesting, thank you!!... so basically if you wanna go into one of the competitive ones - must do intercalated, publications, audits etc right?
    I didn't intercalate, publish or do an audit in this specialty. I did attend conferences and did a whole 4 months in it (doing hundreds of LPs). Now that I am in it, I have got publications and audits. My advice is competition is getting worse and worse, med students are now getting publications and audits from early years (didn't use to happen in my day) so stick with the specialty if you can! If you are around my area I can throw a few neuro projects your way (if that is what you want to do, of course)

    Btw, intercalation, publications and audits help - more information at http://www.st3recruitment.org.uk/rec...cation-scoring

    (essentially, "I have given an oral presentation at a national or international medical meeting" or "I have shown more than one poster at national or international medical meetings" is 6 points - less points as your presentation is less prominent;
    "I am first author, or joint-first author, of two or more PubMed-cited original research publications (or in press)" is 8 points - less points as you have less publication / not PubMed-cited;
    "Degree obtained during medical course (eg intercalation, BSc, BA, etc.) - 1st class honours or equivalent" is 8 points - less points if 2:1 / 2:2 etc.;
    Passing MRCP Part 2 written and/or PACES at the time of application counts too)

    PS - You don't have to publish in that specialty to gain points. I presented posters for another specialty, published for a (surgical!!!) specialty and still it was counted.
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    (Original post by ecolier)
    Yes, so is cardiology actually (unless you want to dual accredit and get a CCT in GIM - general internal medicine). Many specialty only do ST3 and ST4 gen med on-calls. Obviously for elderly care medicine / acute med (!) one will have do it for the whole duration of training.

    Training via ACCS will mean that it will take one more year - CMT is currently still only 2 years, but ACCS is 3 years - that would mean he would have taken one more year. Sure he doesn't want to re-consider? (Plus I think CMT is compulsory for neurology? I would have to check. MRCP definitely is)
    Yeah, he'd rather take the extra year. :lol: Neither of us is in any real hurry to complete training as soon as possible or anything. And there's no denying that most of the CMTs we know are miserable with their training, while the ACCS trainees are a much happier bunch on the whole.

    CMT isn't compulsory at the moment (at least, not as far as the consultants he's spoken to have told him) but you're right about MRCP - he's sitting Part 1 in January.
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    (Original post by ecolier)
    I didn't intercalate, publish or do an audit in this specialty. I did attend conferences and did a whole 4 months in it (doing hundreds of LPs). Now that I am in it, I have got publications and audits. My advice is competition is getting worse and worse, med students are now getting publications and audits from early years (didn't use to happen in my day) so stick with the specialty if you can! If you are around my area I can throw a few neuro projects your way (if that is what you want to do, of course)

    Btw, intercalation, publications and audits help - more information at http://www.st3recruitment.org.uk/rec...cation-scoring

    (essentially, "I have given an oral presentation at a national or international medical meeting" or "I have shown more than one poster at national or international medical meetings" is 6 points - less points as your presentation is less prominent;
    "I am first author, or joint-first author, of two or more PubMed-cited original research publications (or in press)" is 8 points - less points as you have less publication / not PubMed-cited;
    "Degree obtained during medical course (eg intercalation, BSc, BA, etc.) - 1st class honours or equivalent" is 8 points - less points if 2:1 / 2:2 etc.;
    Passing MRCP Part 2 written and/or PACES at the time of application counts too)
    I see, all this is very interesting... yeah I'm thinking of getting this stuff done ASAP. I'm only a first year though and it's hard to commit to one already. Can I pm you about which area you are in please? Thanks for the link also!!
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    (Original post by *pitseleh*)
    Yeah, he'd rather take the extra year. :lol: Neither of us is in any real hurry to complete training as soon as possible or anything. And there's no denying that most of the CMTs we know are miserable with their training, while the ACCS trainees are a much happier bunch on the whole.

    CMT isn't compulsory at the moment (at least, not as far as the consultants he's spoken to have told him) but you're right about MRCP - he's sitting Part 1 in January.
    That is true - they are happier. I didn't regret doing CMT though (even though I am one of the few trainees to not get ITU) - it helps that I have done jobs in other medical specialty. Who knows, he may be persuaded to do a "true" ACCS specialty like emergency med or anaesthetics!! Good luck for his Part 1 - it's random!
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    (Original post by *pitseleh*)
    Yep. I don't want to bash surgical specialties at all, but I've been in the situation (more than once!) where a patient has suggested that surgery is something you progress to after being a physician, as though most doctors either qualify as a consultant medic and then do extra training to become a surgeon, or they 'just' stay as a medic. No idea where that idea comes from.
    I'm not sure but I'm gonna guess it beings with S and ends in 'urgeons'.

    I've heard something similar suggested about GPs as well - that they're doctors who stopped their training before they became consultants.
    That is true in some other countries, so many that's why?
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    I'm not sure but I'm gonna guess it beings with S and ends in 'urgeons'.

    That is true in some other countries, so many that's why?
    Heh. Running their own little propaganda mill. The fiends.

    I didn't realise that's how GP worked elsewhere. That could explain a lot.

    (Original post by ecolier)
    That is true - they are happier. I didn't regret doing CMT though (even though I am one of the few trainees to not get ITU) - it helps that I have done jobs in other medical specialty. Who knows, he may be persuaded to do a "true" ACCS specialty like emergency med or anaesthetics!! Good luck for his Part 1 - it's random!
    Thanks! And yeah - you never know.. he does love emergency medicine too.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    I'm not sure but I'm gonna guess it beings with S and ends in 'urgeons'.
    What do you mean? The surgeons are in on this ego-trip?! No way! Just look at your local humble orthopaedic surgeon
 
 
 
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