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Does the gender pay gap exist? Watch

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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    The pay gap is about people doing equivalent work - it doesn't mean there are no inequalities within, for example, STEM.

    e.g.
    Women engineers earn on average £10k less per year than their male colleagues according to The Engineer’s 2017 salary survey.
    https://www.theengineer.co.uk/engine...0k-gender-gap/
    It is illegal to pay men and women different amounts for the same work. As for averages, take the following graph:



    Taking engineers for example, we can assume top engineers require above average intelligence. If we draw a line at anywhere above say g=0.4 as the requirement to be a top engineer, we find a higher number of men compared to women, hence on average men will earn more despite individuals earning the same wage for the same work.
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    (Original post by Muttley79)
    My aunt did a Maths degree in the 1960s and half her course were women. Just because you don't know anyone is not a proof. There are many female maths teachers in their 50s and retired ones in their 60s and 70s...
    You need a wider pool of evidence to state these 'facts' as they are clearly untrue.
    Exactly. They're "only" maths teachers, not maths professors at university.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    The pay gap is about people doing equivalent work - it doesn't mean there are no inequalities within, for example, STEM.

    e.g.
    Women engineers earn on average £10k less per year than their male colleagues according to The Engineer’s 2017 salary survey.
    https://www.theengineer.co.uk/engine...0k-gender-gap/
    On the link there is no information regarding why. Are we supposed to just infer bias? What if life choices such as choosing to work less hours effect the statistics? Also perhaps it's because men have been working longer from previous generations when there was a palpable bias against women in recruitment and it will take a few decades to play "catch-up"? I'd like to see stats that account for age range.

    Perhaps there is still bias but I just don't understand why an employer would choose to pay a woman less if they are just as capable as their male counterpart. It wouldn't make sense, because a skilled female engineer that feels undervalued could just move to another company which would be a mutually beneficial action as she would make more money for her employer.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    Would help. But the best would be for men to stay home with the kids.
    You want to decrease the tax base even more?
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    (Original post by D3LLI5)
    It is illegal to pay men and women different amounts for the same work. As for averages, take the following graph:



    Taking engineers for example, we can assume top engineers require above average intelligence. If we draw a line at anywhere above say g=0.4 as the requirement to be a top engineer, we find a higher number of men compared to women, hence on average men will earn more despite individuals earning the same wage for the same work.
    What is g? Unless it's a measure of "general engineering ability" it's not relevant.
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    This 'equal pay day' is a ludicrous piece of propaganda which thankfully, it seems, a large and growing number of people now see through. Possibly most.

    It's another one of those outlandish claims made by the modern left that is so implausible and out of step with people's everyday experiences that it simply serves to undermine its own cause.
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    They fiddle the statistics to give the worst possible figure. If you compare for jobs on a like-for-like basis young women actually earn slightly more.

    The IEA explains well:
    https://iea.org.uk/publications/the-...ap-a-briefing/
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    (Original post by lawlieto)
    Exactly. They're "only" maths teachers, not maths professors at university.
    What do you mean 'only' maths teachers? How disrespectful.

    There are plenty of female maths professors - some women [even those with PhDs] prefer to teach not lecture.
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    This 'equal pay day' is a ludicrous piece of propaganda which thankfully, it seems, a large and growing number of people now see through. Possibly most.
    Not yet.
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    (Original post by Hirsty97)
    You want to decrease the tax base even more?
    Instead of the women...


    (Original post by Rinsed)
    They fiddle the statistics to give the worst possible figure. If you compare for jobs on a like-for-like basis young women actually earn slightly more.

    The IEA explains well:
    https://iea.org.uk/publications/the-...ap-a-briefing/


    Kate in that link explains it very well, what would happen if men instead of women stay home.
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    (Original post by sambeaz6)
    Exactly, teachers, not a famously well-paying job. Not as well-paying as many of the other jobs associated with maths qualifications. Teaching is another job that was, and still is, seen as a feminine job
    It's not just that it's still seen as a feminine job, it's that it's increasingly seen that way.

    There has been a long term decline in the numbers of male teachers, exactly as society has been becoming more equal. The reality is if you give women the freedom to choose their own paths there is nothing to say they will, or should, make the same choices on average as men do.
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    (Original post by Wilfred Little)
    Not yet.
    Well, I don't know. I don't have much of an idea at all tbh; I know what I've observed but I've no idea how representative it is around the country and among different age groups etc. I wonder if there are polling data.

    (Original post by yudothis)
    Would help. But the best would be for men to stay home with the kids.
    That's for couples to work out. It makes sod all difference to anyone else and it's none of anyone else's business anyway.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    The pay gap is about people doing equivalent work - it doesn't mean there are no inequalities within, for example, STEM.

    e.g.
    Women engineers earn on average £10k less per year than their male colleagues according to The Engineer’s 2017 salary survey.
    https://www.theengineer.co.uk/engine...0k-gender-gap/
    From that report:

    "As with previous years, however, this may be partly a result in the difference in seniority among respondents, with 8.8 per cent of women describing themselves as graduates, for example, and 20 per cent as junior engineers, compared to 2.2 per cent and 11.5 per cent of men, respectively."

    But let's not let that get in the way of a good headline.
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    (Original post by Rinsed)
    From that report:

    "As with previous years, however, this may be partly a result in the difference in seniority among respondents, with 8.8 per cent of women describing themselves as graduates, for example, and 20 per cent as junior engineers, compared to 2.2 per cent and 11.5 per cent of men, respectively."

    But let's not let that get in the way of a good headline.
    Also from that report:
    "Perhaps most concerningly, women at every level of seniority are on average paid less than their male colleagues. For example, at junior level women earn on average £4k less than their male colleagues. The gap widens at director level with women paid on average £20k less."


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    (Original post by Muttley79)
    What do you mean 'only' maths teachers? How disrespectful.

    There are plenty of female maths professors - some women [even those with PhDs] prefer to teach not lecture.
    It's not disrespectful, being a maths teacher at lower level is not intellectually challenging as opposed to becoming a professor, and "plenty of female maths professors" actually means not that many academics in maths compared to how many men there are... (Also, the difference between being a teacher/professor is not teach/lecture, what I meant is that mathematicians do "active research" whatever they call it in maths, and a university probably pays that better than a secondary school paying for teaching).

    I'm not saying women are more stupid (I'm also a woman). But having kids is more time-consuming when you're a woman and it's hard to match that with an academic (and a better paying) job. It's one of the reasons why I don't want kids.
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    (Original post by lawlieto)
    It's not disrespectful, being a maths teacher at lower level is not intellectually challenging as opposed to becoming a professor, and "plenty of female maths professors" actually means not that many academics in maths compared to how many men there are... (Also, the difference between being a teacher/professor is not teach/lecture, what I meant is that mathematicians do "active research" whatever they call it in maths, and a university probably pays that better than a secondary school paying for teaching).

    I'm not saying women are more stupid (I'm also a woman). But having kids is more time-consuming when you're a woman and it's hard to match that with an academic (and a better paying) job. It's one of the reasons why I don't want kids.
    Most academics are not that well paid. You don't go into academia, or frankly, teaching just for the money.

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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    What is g? Unless it's a measure of "general engineering ability" it's not relevant.
    It’s the same as IQ and has been shown to have a clear correlation with income, irrespective of gender.
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    (Original post by D3LLI5)
    It’s the same as IQ and has been shown to have a clear correlation with income, irrespective of gender.
    Has it indeed. Does all IQ research agree with that?
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    (Original post by D3LLI5)
    It’s the same as IQ and has been shown to have a clear correlation with income, irrespective of gender.
    What does it stand for
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Also from that report:
    "Perhaps most concerningly, women at every level of seniority are on average paid less than their male colleagues. For example, at junior level women earn on average £4k less than their male colleagues. The gap widens at director level with women paid on average £20k less."
    Posted from TSR Mobile
    The point is though that it demonstrates the fraught nature of these type of statistics. The more you control for other differences, the more the gap disappears. For instance:

    "Among the individual sectors, the industries with the highest proportion of women are academia (10.8 per cent) and rail, civil and structural (10.3 per cent), with the figure for the latter remaining unchanged since 2016. These are followed by the materials industry, where 10 per cent of the sample are female. At the other end of the scale, just 2.8 per cent of engineers in the automotive industry are women, 3.4 per cent of those in chemicals, pharmaceuticals and medical, and 3.6 per cent in defence, security and marine."

    Suffice to say this represents a skew towards women being more likely to be employed in the lower-paying sectors, which you can see elsewhere in the report. Though it's not in this report, I would be very surprised if the gap were not smaller still when you controlled for industry.

    There is no evidence that I know of that women are still paid less for the same work in any field, because it is illegal and irrational.
 
 
 
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