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If you voted to leave the EU, Don't bother wearing the poppy... Watch

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    I agree to an extent…. No wait I don’t. Britain has always pursued its own affairs, we’ve rarely been a reason for European conflicts, you’d have to dig back years, in modern history we only got involved because we were either dragged in or knew standing by our allies was the right thing to do.

    Britain should be proud of its involvement in world 1 and 2 and how it helped shaped the outcome of victory, but most of all we should be credited for sticking by our allies in the aftermath and going on to play a big part in forming the EU. It was inevitable that Britain would once again choose to control its own affairs as it always has, especially given that the foundation of the EU was arguably heavily built without Britain in mind but certainly going forward the agenda is clearly different to what Britain wants - this started becoming clear when we declined to join the single currency and to have open borders with our neighbors.

    I wouldn’t say people died in world war 1 & 2 to become apart of a European community, we honoured their lives by creating and standing by a community to prevent such tragedies again. But we can both support the EU and be clear we want something different while supporting their agenda just not for us.

    Had we voted to abandon, unfriend and protest the EU’s existence then yes I’d agree, but as far as I’m aware that wasn’t on the ballot.
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    (Original post by Trinculo)
    How is it a conspiracy theory that the EU project is a powergrab? An organisation that used to give out farming subsidies to a few countries and tell people where they could fish - now tells people who is rich and who is poor, controls their central banks, has common currency and tells nations who can come and go and has supremacy over all courts within member states? That's not a power grab?

    As for world policing - what planet are you on? This discussion is about whether or not the EU is an organisation rooted in keeping peace in Europe. Presumably your answer to peace in the Balkans would have been to wait until everyone was dead and then declare that the killing had come to an end.
    And it has. Europe's history has been littered with peace and since the EU its member states have been at peace. Presumably you are talking out of your arse. What complete nonsense comes out of your head?
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    And it has. Europe's history has been littered with peace and since the EU its member states have been at peace. Presumably you are talking out of your arse. What complete nonsense comes out of your head?
    The above makes no sense. It's just drivel.

    Simple question - why would you think that the EU, rather than NATO is the reason for peace in Europe?
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    (Original post by the bear)
    only the middle bit & the stem are plastic; the petals are thick paper.
    You devils advocate.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    since the EU its member states have been at peace. Presumably you are talking out of your arse. What complete nonsense comes out of your head?
    That's a logical fallacy. You can't say that there has been peace in Europe since the EU, because of the EU.

    You are affirming the consequent.
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    Never wear a poppy anyway.
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    (Original post by generallee)
    That's a logical fallacy. You can't say that there has been peace in Europe since the EU, because of the EU.

    You are affirming the consequent.
    And I did no such thing. Or quote me where I said "the EU is the only reason we have had peace in Europe since 1945". Now be quiet.
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    I don't see how wishing to leave the EU, would mean you do not have respect for those who fought for us in war?
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    **** off you ****
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    And I did no such thing. Or quote me where I said "the EU is the only reason we have had peace in Europe since 1945". Now be quiet.
    I am a little mystified as to what your point was, then?

    If you are saying that the EU has not been the cause of a few decades of peace since the war then we are in agreement.
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    (Original post by generallee)
    I am a little mystified as to what your point was, then?

    If you are saying that the EU has not been the cause of a few decades of peace since the war then we are in agreement.
    I am saying it isn't the only cause. But it played its intended part. And a war in the balkans doesn't distract from that.
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    I'd say the Pax Americana is at least equally as important as preventing a WW3 as the EU, and there is actually a world outside of Europe as well.
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    I think this is all a real misunderstanding over the nature of conflict and what exactly the EU is or is not.

    Post-War, the real threat to peace was war with the Soviet Union - nothing to do with conflict between EEC members. Up until the 90s there was no EU to speak of - so what conflict precisely was the EU preventing? Except for France and Britain, no EEC countries had any capability to go to war in any meaningful sense.

    Post 90s, and the fall of Iron Curtain - where was the conflict going to come from? Pretty much everyone rightly pointed to the Middle East. There was no real conflict looming within the EU - as nations we had moved on. The world moved from one of territory and resource to one of information - why precisely would any individual nation look to expand its borders within the EU? It wouldn't. The only body doing that was the EU itself.

    It's entirely wrong to think that the EU had any hand in peace - until the 90s, the EU didn't exist - after the 90s, there was nothing to fight over. As for the ludicrous suggestion that conflict *outside* the EU is irrelevant - surely that would be the most isolationist and ignorant viewpoint ever for a body that is supposed to be global?
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    Failed pseudo-academic or lesser writing articles for sensationalism. Pure unfeeling, passionless click-whoring.

    The EU is a trading bloc, not something to prevent future wars. I didn't even vote leave and this is tilting me. The EU was sold to us many years ago as a trading deal, if people want to claim the EU as some sort of humanitarian peacekeeping force then they need to be shown the door to a good library. What's the EU actually going to do to prevent war? Are they going to stand against provoking Russia to war? No, they're going to sit buy whilst NATO bases are built all around Russia's border. Are they goi- Okay let's just face it, the EU doesn't give a rat's ass. They don't even care about their own damn member states because the EU (aka Germany) can screw them.

    Sorry for rambling, the EU just isn't a peacekeeping force. It's an inwards trading bloc primarily concerned with the interests of Germany first, everyone else second. I voted to stay in the EU, because America as an alternative is silly. Trump is more likely to screw us than he is not to, but damn do I hate it.

    TL;DR: Europe is Germany's Fourth Reich. The EU is alive solely for the benefit of Germany and maybe France. It isn't a "peacekeeping" force, it's an isolationist bloc designed to regulate out any competition to the economic interests of Germany (any maybe France).
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    (Original post by Taz554:-))
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a8043711.html

    What do you think and fair arguments please.
    Sadly this has become the norm for the Independent since their went online. They've essentially adopted the approach of trying to compete with the Guardian.

    The main crux of the point though is wrong regardless. Having won two wars to escape european rule, Brexit is entirely in keeping with that thinking.
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    (Original post by JohanGRK)
    When you try to re-claim the use of the term 'Generation Snowflake' but end up sounding like one anyway.

    As an ardent Remainer who actually holds EU nationality (it's sad that I even need to put my credentials forward), I'm pretty sure that the situation vis-a-vis Europe (and war) has changed since the time when it was thought that closer trading ties would help avoid another German-French conflict. Sure, the EU was founded, 70 years ago, as part of a plan to avoid war. It has contributed, along with wider macroeconomic and geopolitical changes, to maintaining that peace.

    However, the author fails to prove that leaving the EU, now, in 2017, is likely to increase the risk of war, or that the referendum result was indeed a decision motivated by militarism, colonial ambition, or whatever.
    You realise the EU was founded in 1993 with the Maastricht Treaty right? That wasn't 70 years ago. Yes, the EEC (predecessor of the EU) was formed 70 years ago (although we didn't join until 1973), however it really had nothing to do with politics nor with the idea of 'keeping the peace', it was merely formed in an effort to bring about economic integration within Europe - it was the formation of the EU that brought politics into the equation.
 
 
 
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