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Need help with this tricky integration question

So the question is to integrate

sin(x)sin(x)+cos(x)dx\displaystyle \int{\frac{sin(x)}{sin(x)+cos(x)}}dx

My working out is below
Note: After I used a second substitution, I realised I was going no one with it and the integration calculators online have strange approaches to this question.
integ help.jpg

Spoiler

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No substitutions required. First step, times top and bottom by (sinx-cosx)/(sinx-cosx) then use the cos2x identity :wink:. Tbf I didn't work that out but seeing the answer gave it away for me.
And yeah god cleaning it up at the end is a nightmare too. Do you want me to work through it again in a clear way then post a picture to get past the integrating stage then you can see if you can clean it up to get to that point.
Reply 3
Original post by black1blade
And yeah god cleaning it up at the end is a nightmare too. Do you want me to work through it again in a clear way then post a picture to get past the integrating stage then you can see if you can clean it up to get to that point.


I understand how the denominator becomes cos(2x)\displaystyle {cos(2x)} but I'm still figuring out the numerator because I have sin2(x)sin(x)cos(x)\displaystyle {sin^{2}(x)-sin(x)cos(x)}
Original post by ManLike007
I understand how the denominator becomes cos(2x)\displaystyle {cos(2x)} but I'm still figuring out the numerator because I have sin2(x)sin(x)cos(x)\displaystyle {sin^{2}(x)-sin(x)cos(x)}


At this point it is easiest if you split the fraction. You should be able to deal with the sin^2(x) bit using cos(2x)=1-2sin^2(x). You can then use sin(2x)=2sin(x)cos(x) for the second fraction. After that point you should be able to cancel stuff so you have standard integrals. I guess it's still quite difficult if you don't have a formula book on you with a bunch of standard integrals in it. Where is this question from because it sure as hell ain't a c4 question XD.
Reply 5
Original post by black1blade
At this point it is easiest if you split the fraction. You should be able to deal with the sin^2(x) bit using cos(2x)=1-2sin^2(x). You can then use sin(2x)=2sin(x)cos(x) for the second fraction. After that point you should be able to cancel stuff so you have standard integrals. I guess it's still quite difficult if you don't have a formula book on you with a bunch of standard integrals in it. Where is this question from because it sure as hell ain't a c4 question XD.


Oh lol no it's not A Level, it's a problem solving sheet from my university
Okay yeah I've gotten to the provided answer :smile:.
Original post by ManLike007
Oh lol no it's not A Level, it's a problem solving sheet from my university


Ah fair fairs. Yeah tbh I wouldn't have know what to do without peaking at the answer. I think the general thought process should be that with trig integrals you are gonna want to use identities and to use identities, most have sin or cos squared so you want to make as much sin or cos squared while getting rid of the cos and sin to the power 1. :smile:.
Do the problem solving sheets count for any of your grade or are they just for supervision type thingies?
Reply 9
Original post by black1blade
Do the problem solving sheets count for any of your grade or are they just for supervision type thingies?


Nah it's just practice, we have 1 hour each week taught by a PhD student and we get as far as we can with the work sheet, same goes for my other modules.
Original post by ManLike007
Nah it's just practice, we have 1 hour each week taught by a PhD student and we get as far as we can with the work sheet, same goes for my other modules.


Ah fair fairs, sounds fun :smile:.
Original post by ManLike007
So the question is to integrate

sin(x)sin(x)+cos(x)dx\displaystyle \int{\frac{sin(x)}{sin(x)+cos(x)}}dx

My working out is below
Note: After I used a second substitution, I realised I was going no one with it and the integration calculators online have strange approaches to this question.
integ help.jpg

Spoiler




If you can't recognise what the poster above suggested a tangent half angle substitution would also work, but it is longer.
As this integral is for fun, here's a fun method useful for similar integrals:

Let I=sinxsinx+cosxdx\displaystyle I = \int \frac{\sin x}{\sin x + \cos x} \mathrm dx and J=cosxsinx+cosxdx\displaystyle J = \int \frac{\cos x}{\sin x + \cos x}\mathrm dx.

Consider I+JI+J and IJI-J to form a system of equations and solve for II and JJ.
Original post by ManLike007
Where does the 12\frac{1}{2} come in?

I'm left with lnsin(x)+cos(x)+x+C-ln|sin(x)+cos(x)|+x+C whereas the answer is 12lnsin(x)+cos(x)+x2+C-\frac{1}{2}ln|\displaystyle {sin(x)+cos(x)}|+\frac{x}{2}+C


You have I+J+IJ=2I=xlnsinx+cosx+CI+J + I - J = \boxed{2}I = x -\ln|\sin x + \cos x| + C.This is probably where you dropped the 1/2.
Original post by _gcx
You have I+J+IJ=2I=xlnsinx+cosx+CI+J + I - J = \boxed{2}I = x -\ln|\sin x + \cos x| + C.This is probably where you dropped the 1/2.


I know! I just realised it, my bad, I deleted my comment but then you just replied, thanks for the method by the way.

Is this method only applicable in cases where you have AA±B\displaystyle \int \frac{A}{A \pm B} ? (where A and B are functions) What's this method called as well?
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by NotNotBatman
If you can't recognise what the poster above suggested a tangent half angle substitution would also work, but it is longer.


I'm sorry, I've never heard of this method before but thanks for your time though
Reply 16
Original post by _gcx
As this integral is for fun, here's a fun method useful for similar integrals:

Let I=sinxsinx+cosxdx\displaystyle I = \int \frac{\sin x}{\sin x + \cos x} \mathrm dx and J=cosxsinx+cosxdx\displaystyle J = \int \frac{\cos x}{\sin x + \cos x}\mathrm dx.

Consider I+JI+J and IJI-J to form a system of equations and solve for II and JJ.


Thanks, I love this method!
Original post by black1blade
Ah fair fairs. Yeah tbh I wouldn't have know what to do without peaking at the answer. I think the general thought process should be that with trig integrals you are gonna want to use identities and to use identities, most have sin or cos squared so you want to make as much sin or cos squared while getting rid of the cos and sin to the power 1. :smile:.


Lol I've given up on this, I shouldn't have spent 2 hours on this question but thanks for your contribution
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by ManLike007
Lol I've given up on this, I shouldn't have spent 2 hours on this question but thanks for your contribution
I know you've given up, but another approach that might make sense for you:

Make the substitution u = x + pi / 4, then

sin x + cos x = 2sinu\sqrt{2} \sin u

and sin x = sin(u-pi/4) = sin u cos pi/4 - cos u sin pi /4 = 12(sinucosu)\dfrac{1}{\sqrt{2}} (\sin u - \cos u)

This gives you an integral very similar to what you started with, but with numerator and denominator flipped. Since it is much easier to divide sin u and cos u by sin u than it is to divide sin x by (sin x + cos x), this new integral is pretty straightforward.
Original post by DFranklin
I know you've given up, but another approach that might make sense for you:

Make the substitution u = x + pi / 4, then

sin x + cos x = 2sinu\sqrt{2} \sin u

and sin x = sin(u-pi/4) = sin u cos pi/4 - cos u sin pi /4 = 12(sinucosu)\dfrac{1}{\sqrt{2}} (\sin u - \cos u)

This gives you an integral very similar to what you started with, but with numerator and denominator flipped. Since it is much easier to divide sin u and cos u by sin u than it is to divide sin x by (sin x + cos x), this new integral is pretty straightforward.


I perfectly understand what you've done but after you integrate, my answer isn't actually what I want,

12sin(u)cos(u)sin(u)du\displaystyle \frac{1}{2} \int \frac{sin(u)-cos(u)}{sin(u)} du

121cot(u)du\displaystyle \frac{1}{2} \int 1-cot(u) du

=12[ulnsin(u)]+C=\frac{1}{2}[u-ln|sin(u)|]+C

=12[x+π4ln12sin(x)+(1/2)cos(x)+C=\frac{1}{2}[x+\frac{\pi}{4}-ln|\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}sin(x)+(1/\sqrt{2})cos(x)|+C

(LaTex bugged out towards the end of my last sentence writing cos(x) so I couldn't use a fraction)

Am I doing something wrong here?

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