Man wins in women's competition Watch

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Plantagenet Crown
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Chief Wiggum)
So using this logic, should short men have their own basketball league?

Should we separate out sprinting events by ethnicity?

Should people with low IQ scores sit different A Level papers than people with high IQ scores?
Let's not engage in the simplistic fallacy of extremes. There is much less variation within ethnicities than between the sexes, therefore there is no reason at all to sub categorise and segregate everything to the point where any competition becomes meaningless. By that nonsensical logic no one could ever compete against anyone else given than no one has identical skills.

I repeat, getting rid of segregated sports would mean women would never win anything, which would probably lead to a massive drop in women taking up sports in the first place.
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yudothis
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#42
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#42
(Original post by Chief Wiggum)
So using this logic, should short men have their own basketball league?

Should we separate out sprinting events by ethnicity?

Should people with low IQ scores sit different A Level papers than people with high IQ scores?
Stop being an idiot Chief.
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Good bloke
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#43
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(Original post by Dima-Blackburn)
What’s there to justify? Provided her testosterone levels were below 10 nanomoles per liter for at least 12 months prior to the competition, there’s nothing to justify.
Do you think his muscles were largely developed during the last twelve months, or is there some possibility that they were developed over a longer period?
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Napp
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#44
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I thought i was the only person to read Newshub aha.

As for the article it's a complete affront to all sports and a fair and level playing field.
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dandiprat
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#45
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Regardless of your opinion, I am stating this as a trans man myself, and the last thing I am being is exclusionary or biased. I speak from experience, and working with and alongside trans people:

It isn't even worth debating this, trans women still have the biological capacity to gain muscle mass and strength at a higher rate than a biological woman--a huge benefit in most sports. Under these circumstances, it is not appropriate for a trans woman to enter any form of sports competition against biological women, and it offers a massive advantage on par with disallowed performance-enhancers. It is the same concerning trans men, but I wouldn't impede upon their wish to compete against biological men because.... well, it is only a disadvantage to themselves. Most trans men are still affected by biological factors; including a reduced ability to build muscle and strength in comparison to biological males; although often work themselves well enough to compete--neither at an advantage or disadvantage since testosterone levels are kept within a natural male range (otherwise we would make ourselves pretty damn sick). Look at Laith Ashley, Aydian Dowling, Shawn Stinson, Ben Melzer, and so on.

The best choice of action in my opinion would be to set up an isolated competition for those who are trans, but even then it is questionable since every trans person responds differently to their medication, and their athletic ability may both be inhibited or improved by their medication more than the next person. However, it would be comparable to many athletic competitions where disabled individuals compete with varying degrees of disabilities--not saying trans people are disabled, just using it as a comparative example. The second problem with a trans exclusive competition comes with the idea that many trans people far into their transition are not obviously trans, and prefer to live in stealth. By setting up trans exclusive competitions, you would essentially be removing the choice to compete from trans athletes who wish to remain private about their past.
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yudothis
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#46
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(Original post by dandiprat)
Regardless of your opinion, I am stating this as a trans man myself, and the last thing I am being is exclusionary or biased. I speak from experience, and working with and alongside trans people:

It isn't even worth debating this, trans women still have the biological capacity to gain muscle mass and strength at a higher rate than a biological woman--a huge benefit in most sports. Under these circumstances, it is not appropriate for a trans woman to enter any form of sports competition against biological women, and it offers a massive advantage on par with disallowed performance-enhancers. It is the same concerning trans men, but I wouldn't impede upon their wish to compete against biological men because.... well, it is only a disadvantage to themselves. Most trans men are still affected by biological factors; including a reduced ability to build muscle and strength in comparison to biological males; although often work themselves well enough to compete--neither at an advantage or disadvantage since testosterone levels are kept within a natural male range (otherwise we would make ourselves pretty damn sick). Look at Laith Ashley, Aydian Dowling, Shawn Stinson, Ben Melzer, and so on.

The best choice of action in my opinion would be to set up an isolated competition for those who are trans, but even then it is questionable since every trans person responds differently to their medication, and their athletic ability may both be inhibited or improved by their medication more than the next person. However, it would be comparable to many athletic competitions where disabled individuals compete with varying degrees of disabilities--not saying trans people are disabled, just using it as a comparative example. The second problem with a trans exclusive competition comes with the idea that many trans people far into their transition are not obviously trans, and prefer to live in stealth. By setting up trans exclusive competitions, you would essentially be removing the choice to compete from trans athletes who wish to remain private about their past.
Very open and honest, thank you for that.
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anarchism101
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#47
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(Original post by Ninja Squirrel)
I don't agree with allowing transgenders to participate in their new genders sports teams because genetically they are still men!
I assume by "genetically men", you mean they're XY? Athletics hasn't verified sex by chromosome tests for about two decades, simply because there were too many intersex female athletes for it to be reliable.

They have the strength of men...
No, they don't. Trans women who've had a year of the kind of hormone therapy required by the IOC generally have noticeably lower T levels than cis female athletes. Runners who transition report getting drastically slower times after than before.

Trans women on average, are taller, smaller-breasted, and narrower-hipped than cis-women, and these things do provide advantages in some sports. But plenty of cis women naturally have these body shapes as well anyway, and we don't ban them.
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anarchism101
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#48
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#48
(Original post by dandiprat)
It isn't even worth debating this, trans women still have the biological capacity to gain muscle mass and strength at a higher rate than a biological woman--a huge benefit in most sports.
It depends on the sport. Increased mass is great for a sprinter, but would ruin a marathon runner.
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arizonaidiot
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#49
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#49
Not a man they said,it was a women they said......
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Chief Wiggum
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#50
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(Original post by yudothis)
Stop being an idiot Chief.
Haha, my post may be stating an unusual viewpoint, but I do maintain that it makes logical sense.

Having sprinting events separated by ethnicity is a pretty good analogy for sporting events separated by gender, in my opinion.
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StudyJosh
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#51
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I thought everyone knew trans women are not actually women and that trans men are not actually men...

it's literally a priori knowledge.
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dandiprat
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#52
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(Original post by anarchism101)
It depends on the sport. Increased mass is great for a sprinter, but would ruin a marathon runner.
I would agree with this, but in many cases biological males still do better in running competitions. Look at the fastest runners out there: they are all men. And the same can be seen with marathon winners: the male winners always finish faster than female winners. Tables for the London Marathon Elite Runner's and their winning times (both for the men's races and women's races) act as statistical evidence. You will notice that winning men finish significantly faster in comparison to the winning women. Even by looking at the fastest times we can see a huge difference:

Men's Fastest Time: 2h 03 mins
Women's Fastest Time: 2h 15mins.
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yudothis
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#53
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#53
(Original post by anarchism101)
I assume by "genetically men", you mean they're XY? Athletics hasn't verified sex by chromosome tests for about two decades, simply because there were too many intersex female athletes for it to be reliable.



No, they don't. Trans women who've had a year of the kind of hormone therapy required by the IOC generally have noticeably lower T levels than cis female athletes. Runners who transition report getting drastically slower times after than before.

Trans women on average, are taller, smaller-breasted, and narrower-hipped than cis-women, and these things do provide advantages in some sports. But plenty of cis women naturally have these body shapes as well anyway, and we don't ban them.
Don't be disingenuous, there is no scientific agreement on this.

http://www.excellesports.com/news/tr...antage-sports/


Dr. Ramona Krutzik, an endocrinologist with the Imperial Valley Endocrine Medical Corporation in Brawley, CA who has 19 years of experience studying human hormones, believes that one year of hormone therapy is not enough to reverse the “advantageous” effects that trans women athletes have after male puberty.
According to Krutzik, athletes who grow up as men have already enjoyed an increased ability to build muscle and bone mass for years, which accounts for endurance and strength differences between biological men and women. And a few years of hormone suppression does not reverse these effects.
“Typically, you’re looking at about 15 years after [hormone] suppression and [sex reassignment surgery] to really start to see significant changes in bone density,” Krutzik told boxing magazine Bloody Elbow.
Other physicians, however, say that trans women athletes have less of an edge than most people think. Trans woman Joanna Harper, a medical physicist at Providence Portland Medical Center in Oregon who advised the IOC on its latest transgender policies, published a study in 2015 that found that hormone therapy actually makes male-to-female road runners slower.
An avid amateur road racer herself, Harper discovered that she became 12 percent slower in Masters running events after just one year of testosterone suppression.
Funny how the view against them having an advantage was the research of a transwoman herself.

In my opinion:

1. You are kidding yourself if you think the years of male body and particular muscle and bone development are all void after just a year of hormone treatment.
2. Until there is a definitive agreement in the community (either way), one has to protect the much larger group - women. Yes, sucks for transwomen but to pander to this minority means throwing every cis woman under the bus. That is unacceptable.
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dabadeedabadai
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#54
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#54
You'll notice how the trans people are superior

Its because they are men!

Testosterone isn't everything, did they change their bone structure? muscle?
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XOR_
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#55
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#55
This is a piss take.
Join/create a trans competition instead.
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yudothis
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#56
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#56
(Original post by XOR_)
This is a piss take.
Join/create a trans competition instead.
This. I don't get it.

Disabled people did that, they even have a paralympics. But nah, transwomen need to beat women to feel good about themselves.
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Ella-keturah
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#57
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#57
It is actually getting ridiculous now. Just unfair on the other women competing.
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anarchism101
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#58
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(Original post by yudothis)
2. Until there is a definitive agreement in the community (either way), one has to protect the much larger group - women.
"Women" defined how? Athletics governing bodies are already having headaches over this, particularly with regard to the Caster Semenya and Dutee Chand debacles.
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anarchism101
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#59
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(Original post by dandiprat)
I would agree with this, but in many cases biological males still do better in running competitions. Look at the fastest runners out there: they are all men. And the same can be seen with marathon winners: the male winners always finish faster than female winners.
So why does the fact that cis men are generally faster than cis women prove that trans women will be faster than cis women?
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yudothis
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#60
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#60
(Original post by anarchism101)
"Women" defined how? Athletics governing bodies are already having headaches over this, particularly with regard to the Caster Semenya and Dutee Chand debacles.
Indeed. But those are anomalies (as harsh as it that sounds, it is what it is) and I don't think anyone has a problem with Semenya running while under hormonal treatment. She just dominates when she isn't. When she was, she was still a world class athlete by the way. Anyway, this is a totally different matter, and a very disingenuous one - TRAs (trans activists) bring it up all the time, they always misuse intersex examples to further their agenda. They are not intersex. Leave intersex people alone.

This is simply males saying "I am female, let me compete in women's sports, I will just take some hormones, all is good, I totally don't have an advantage".
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