Man wins in women's competition Watch

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anarchism101
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#61
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(Original post by yudothis)
Indeed. But those are anomalies (as harsh as it that sounds, it is what it is) and I don't think anyone has a problem with Semenya running while under hormonal treatment. She just dominates when she isn't. When she was, she was still a world class athlete by the way. Anyway, this is a totally different matter, and a very disingenuous one - TRAs (trans activists) bring it up all the time, they always misuse intersex examples to further their agenda. They are not intersex. Leave intersex people alone.

This is simply males saying "I am female, let me compete in women's sports, I will just take some hormones, all is good, I totally don't have an advantage".
So it's fine for intersex female athletes to compete if they take treatment to bring their hormone levels into line with the requirements, but unfair for trans female athletes to do the same?
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yudothis
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(Original post by anarchism101)
So it's fine for intersex female athletes to compete if they take treatment to bring their hormone levels into line with the requirements, but unfair for trans female athletes to do the same?
As I said in the other thread I think, those are two different issues. Intersex people aren't transgender and TRAs need to stop misusing for their agenda.
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dandiprat
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(Original post by anarchism101)
So why does the fact that cis men are generally faster than cis women prove that trans women will be faster than cis women?
Because very little changes after medical transition is underway for most trans women, in terms of strength and muscle production/retention--especially in those who keep up an athletic lifestyle--for a very long time. Of course, every individual reacts differently to their medication, but I have plenty of friends from social groups and general life essentially forcing themselves to be completely inactive just to cast off unwanted muscle tone and, in turn, strength (all of whom are medicated and have been for some time). Moreover, anti-androgen medication (that is used alongside estrogen) takes a long time to reduce testosterone in the body to a female level, and it is likely trans women will have a higher level compared to your average biological female for the first few years. If they were to begin training during that phase or before starting hormones, it is not far off utilising basic steroids for a boost.

Furthermore, there are still structural factors in biological males that develop naturally and work in their favour where some sports are concerned: larger and stronger skeletal frames, more height, larger hearts, and so forth. These are features that will not disappear because of some estrogen. Don't get me wrong though, there will always be circumstances where biological females have an advantage: look at gymnastics, as an example, since cis women generally have a better quality of flexibility in comparison to males. Then, in other categories where the sport requires mental power rather than physical brawn, the chances really are even: thinking about competitions in shooting, equestrian rounds, etc.

Personally, I don't care all too much about sports... have everyone versus everyone for all I care; but to athletes and audiences, accuracy is something of a priority, and for that reason there are too many differing factors. Of course, there is a huge variation in body and structure between everyone of both genders, regardless their identity as transgender or cisgender; nevertheless, based on real-life examples alone, it is evident that a trans woman's athletic ability is more comparable to what you would see in a man than a woman, potentially removing the fairness from a competition quite substantially.

Like I have said, I wouldn't care myself, but when it comes to most sports' audiences they would start picketing.
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generallee
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(Original post by Dima-Blackburn)

But I’m interested to hear what rules you’d propose. I’m sure you’re fully read on human physiology and sports science to determine the relevant criteria for sex verification.
It is real simple if you aren't fully invested in the utter madness of transgender sexual politics. The total luncacy. Real simple.

XX chromosones = homogametic sex. Competes against the same sex (commonly called "women" ) at the Commonwealth Games.

XY chromosones = heterogametic sex. Competes against the same sex (commonly called "men" ) at the Commonwealth Games.

Do you see now? Not all that hard is it to come up with perfectly sensible "rules?"
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Dima-Blackburn
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(Original post by generallee)
It is real simple if you aren't fully invested in the utter madness of transgender sexual politics. The total luncacy. Real simple.

XX chromosones = homogametic sex. Competes against the same sex (commonly called "women" ) at the Commonwealth Games.

XY chromosones = heterogametic sex. Competes against the same sex (commonly called "men" ) at the Commonwealth Games.

Do you see now? Not all that hard is it to come up with perfectly sensible "rules?"
What a moronic response. Please see the history of chromosome testing in the history of sex verification in sports and why it was abandoned in favour of hormone testing. It's intriguing how armchair right-wing transphobes think they are somehow more qualified to decide the appropriate rules than the experts. Your simplistic folk biology simply cannot comprehend the nuances and variations involved. No wonder you're just another, "Nobody knew it could be so complicated" Trumplet.
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bigfatalan
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such a shame back in my day they would have done time in the slammer


Lots of love, Big FAT Alan <3
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Zargabaath
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(Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
Don’t know if this post is a parody or not, but doing as you propose clearly wouldn’t work. While men and women should be equal in terms of job opportunity, it’s basic biology that men are superior in virtually all fields of sport, strength and physical prowess. Women would never or very rarely win anything if they had to compete against men.
typical response from a straight white male :hmmm:
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Dima-Blackburn
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(Original post by dandiprat)
Because very little changes after medical transition is underway for most trans women, in terms of strength and muscle production/retention--especially in those who keep up an athletic lifestyle--for a very long time. Of course, every individual reacts differently to their medication, but I have plenty of friends from social groups and general life essentially forcing themselves to be completely inactive just to cast off unwanted muscle tone and, in turn, strength (all of whom are medicated and have been for some time). Moreover, anti-androgen medication (that is used alongside estrogen) takes a long time to reduce testosterone in the body to a female level, and it is likely trans women will have a higher level compared to your average biological female for the first few years. If they were to begin training during that phase or before starting hormones, it is not far off utilising basic steroids for a boost.

Furthermore, there are still structural factors in biological males that develop naturally and work in their favour where some sports are concerned: larger and stronger skeletal frames, more height, larger hearts, and so forth. These are features that will not disappear because of some estrogen. Don't get me wrong though, there will always be circumstances where biological females have an advantage: look at gymnastics, as an example, since cis women generally have a better quality of flexibility in comparison to males. Then, in other categories where the sport requires mental power rather than physical brawn, the chances really are even: thinking about competitions in shooting, equestrian rounds, etc.

Personally, I don't care all too much about sports... have everyone versus everyone for all I care; but to athletes and audiences, accuracy is something of a priority, and for that reason there are too many differing factors. Of course, there is a huge variation in body and structure between everyone of both genders, regardless their identity as transgender or cisgender; nevertheless, based on real-life examples alone, it is evident that a trans woman's athletic ability is more comparable to what you would see in a man than a woman, potentially removing the fairness from a competition quite substantially.

Like I have said, I wouldn't care myself, but when it comes to most sports' audiences they would start picketing.
The studies (accepted by the IOC) I've seen so far suggest the opposite. Do you have any evidence to support the claim that transwomen retain a significant athletic advantage post transition? I'm not necessarily disregarding your own anecdotes, but it's generally accepted in the literature that decreased strength and muscle-mass (key in weightlifting) occur fairly rapidly. In order to retain the pre-transition abilities, one would have to train a lot harder as a transwoman than a cis-woman.

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In any case, the rules are unlikely to be changed. Hormone testing may not be perfect, but it's the best method we have right now and that's good enough for the IOC. I haven't seen any evidence that transwomen are overrepresented in terms of performance, unlike say, Kenyans in athletics.
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yudothis
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(Original post by Dima-Blackburn)
The studies (accepted by the IOC) I've seen so far suggest the opposite. Do you have any evidence to support the claim that transwomen retain a significant athletic advantage post transition? I'm not necessarily disregarding your own anecdotes, but it's generally accepted in the literature that decreased strength and muscle-mass (key in weightlifting) occur fairly rapidly. In order to retain the pre-transition abilities, one would have to train a lot harder as a transwoman than a cis-woman.

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In any case, the rules are unlikely to be changed. Hormone testing may not be perfect, but it's the best method we have right now and that's good enough for the IOC. I haven't seen any evidence that transwomen are overrepresented in terms of performance, unlike say, Kenyans in athletics.
Because they are bullied by trans lobby groups that present one sided "studies" much like the British public and government are being lobbied by trans groups.

A prevalence of Kenyans is completely irrelevant. Just noise on your part. I mean essentially you are saying well if it's an unfair advantage it only happens in small numbers atm so let's not give a ****.
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Dima-Blackburn
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(Original post by yudothis)
Because they are bullied by trans lobby groups that present one sided "studies" much like the British public and government are being lobbied by trans groups.
Yes, and climate change is a Chinese hoax perpetuated by Big Green.

A prevalence of Kenyans is completely irrelevant. Just noise on your part. I mean essentially you are saying well if it's an unfair advantage it only happens in small numbers atm so let's not give a ****.
I never said anything of the sort. I’m simply saying there’s no evidence of there being an unfair advantage that would prevent cis-women from securing the top positions, and the evidence suggests that; transwomen are NOT overrepresented. If your unscientific, transphobic tripe was even remotely correct, we’d expect to see transwomen domonating all female sports competitions where cis-men traditionally fare better.
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BrianMcEgg
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I dont understand half the **** that has been said but either way, whilst they are able to refer themselves as female, their sex is something that doesn’t change
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yudothis
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(Original post by Dima-Blackburn)
Yes, and climate change is a Chinese hoax perpetuated by Big Green.



I never said anything of the sort. I’m simply saying there’s no evidence of there being an unfair advantage that would prevent cis-women from securing the top positions, and the evidence suggests that; transwomen are NOT overrepresented. If your unscientific, transphobic tripe was even remotely correct, we’d expect to see transwomen domonating all female sports competitions where cis-men traditionally fare better.
You're in denial.

https://notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress...otadebate/amp/

This article explains very well how recent changes were driven by trans only "expert" and lobby groups, no input from other groups.

That's because transwomen are only own more and more starting to play women's sport. And even if you were male you still had to be good as a male to be good against women. No one is saying that couch potato john is suddenly going to beat top female athletes. The point is there's more snd more examples of mediocre men transitioning and dominating.
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yudothis
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Btw - there is evidence. There's just no consensus. And until there is, women must be protected.

TRA are so keen on crying discrimination and oppression and wanting protection.

They're even more keen to trample all over women.
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AlevelsMakeMeSui
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It’s a man.
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Dima-Blackburn
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(Original post by yudothis)
You're in denial.

https://notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress...otadebate/amp/

This article explains very well how recent changes were driven by trans only "expert" and lobby groups, no input from other groups.
I can throw a few links which would explain very well how the Big Green lobbying the government to push back against the poor fossil fuel industry

That's because transwomen are only own more and more starting to play women's sport. And even if you were male you still had to be good as a male to be good against women. No one is saying that couch potato john is suddenly going to beat top female athletes. The point is there's more snd more examples of mediocre men transitioning and dominating.
Evidence?
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Dima-Blackburn
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(Original post by yudothis)
Btw - there is evidence. There's just no consensus. And until there is, women must be protected.

TRA are so keen on crying discrimination and oppression and wanting protection.

They're even more keen to trample all over women.
There is a consensus, hence why the IOC rules are the way they are.

No one is trampling “all over women”. Keep your faux outrage to yourself; the rest of the world has moved on.
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yudothis
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(Original post by Dima-Blackburn)
There is a consensus, hence why the IOC rules are the way they are.

No one is trampling “all over women”. Keep your faux outrage to yourself; the rest of the world has moved on.
It really hasn't, stop silencing people.

https://notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress...otadebate/amp/
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Dima-Blackburn
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(Original post by yudothis)
It really hasn't, stop silencing people.

https://notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress...otadebate/amp/
Stop crying. No one is silencing people. Are you not allowed to spew your nonsense? We can throw around links all day if you want, but until you bring some concrete studies which refute the mainstream consensus which informs the rules of a global organisation, then you’re wasting my time. Get over it; the rules are here to stay.
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yudothis
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(Original post by Dima-Blackburn)
Stop crying. No one is silencing people. Are you not allowed to spew your nonsense? We can throw around links all day if you want, but until you bring some concrete studies which refute the mainstream consensus which informs the rules of a global organisation, then you’re wasting my time. Get over it; the rules are here to stay.
I didn't say I haven't. I said you're trying to silence me by essentially telling me to shut up.

Oh dear they are so not. The IOC will lower the level of testosterone threshold from 10 to 4 nmg/l at some point. The scientists on its commission say 10 is too high.

http://www.wbur.org/commonhealth/201...ender-athletes
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SirMilkSheikh
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This is hilarious. You want equality, then here have it.
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