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Labour women angry as transgender woman applies for Women in Leadership program

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Original post by ByEeek
Again - you haven't answered my question. Who has priority? A woman who feels uncomfortable or a trans-woman? In law, the former has no grounds. The later does especially if the woman is suggesting a trans-woman can not use the toilet.

As for me - gender neutral toilets solve both problems. Only the actual toilet cubical is private. Everything else is open. No hidden corners. No loss of lines of sight. They are much safer than the old fashioned type of toilets where people could be trapped inside and no one would be any the wiser.


A woman suggesting a man cannot use a women's toilet? That's discrimination? Very interesting view.

But what you describe is independent of who enters those toilets...again you don't fully think things through.
Original post by AperfectBalance
We need the line to be drawn somewhere, there is always the argument that if we allow X that Y will happen sometime soon and that is normally dismissed as a non argument, and whilst it is not a certainty it is surely something to take into account.

I could easily say that I am a wolf and I DEMAND to have a bathroom for wolves and other naturekin and if you do not that is discrimination, any sensible person would call me a loony and just move on, yet we see people now somehow thinking you can change sex with a few words. we are getting closer to pure insanity and the destruction of sex and gender is a large part.

We cannot use the words Male or Female anymore since somehow they are meaning gender, yet you would like me to think that due to my chromosomes I am a man and due to my gender I am a man because I think I am, that is as stupid as saying that no means yes but yes means no. the word Man means male, someone with certain chromosomes and certain hormones and features, it cannot mean someone that decides they are male (The argument about genetic abnormalities is totally different and does not justify any of your arguments)


I can't remember the exact wording of the law but it is something along the lines that you can't discriminate on the basis of sex or gender identity and that public bodies and companies must make reasonable adjustment to accommodate all without discriminating. So gender neutral toilets fit that nicely.

And yes, we can use male and female. There is no ban on those words. But similarly we need to be aware there are some who don't identify with those words and make reasonable adjustment, hence saying more inclusive words like "everyone".

And yes - to an extent you are a man because you say you are a man. Sure, you have a genetic sex (which incidentally is not black and white - see Caster Semenya) but also a gender identity, a sexual preference (who we fancy) and one other that I always forget. I completely understand that this might make some people feel uncomfortable, but Boris Johnson makes me feel uncomfortable. I can't have him banned from the country.
Original post by AperfectBalance
You know what, I disagree with Yudothis on a lot of things but if you class biology and common sense as hate speech then I feel very sorry for you and the world that you want to live in.


Yodothis has used transphobia language on this tread. I feel sorry any person that hateful toward other people because they are different.
Original post by Iridocyclitis
That's akin to saying a gay person who came out of the closet later in life should have less opportunities to be involved in gay rights opportunities than someone who came out much earlier on.


No, it's not- because being gay is a closet-able identity in a way that being a woman or a minority isn't.
Original post by ByEeek
I can't remember the exact wording of the law but it is something along the lines that you can't discriminate on the basis of sex or gender identity and that public bodies and companies must make reasonable adjustment to accommodate all without discriminating. So gender neutral toilets fit that nicely.

And yes, we can use male and female. There is no ban on those words. But similarly we need to be aware there are some who don't identify with those words and make reasonable adjustment, hence saying more inclusive words like "everyone".

And yes - to an extent you are a man because you say you are a man. Sure, you have a genetic sex (which incidentally is not black and white - see Caster Semenya) but also a gender identity, a sexual preference (who we fancy) and one other that I always forget. I completely understand that this might make some people feel uncomfortable, but Boris Johnson makes me feel uncomfortable. I can't have him banned from the country.





And yes, we can use male and female. There is no ban on those words. But similarly we need to be aware there are some who don't identify with those words and make reasonable adjustment, hence saying more inclusive words like "everyone".

We cannot have male meaning Biologically male and male meaning I think I am a man, you cannot change your biological gender at all. so Bruce Jenner is a man who thinks he is a woman.

you cannot just say that you do not follow basic biology and bam the laws of nature and biology are broken for you, and I am sorry but I am not going to further mental illness by being more "inclusive"

And yes - to an extent you are a man because you say you are a man. we are talking about sex, I will refuse to use man to both mean the new idea of "gender identity" and to mean biological sex, you are simply pretending to be a man you are in no way a man because you say you are.

(which incidentally is not black and white - see Caster Semenya)
from what I can see it is a genetic abnormality, so as it states an abnormality and should be treated as so.
Original post by looloo2134
Yodothis has use vile transphobia language on this tread. I feel sorry any person that hateful toward other people because they are different. They must be an unhappy person.


You seem to have hatred for this person because they have a different viewpoint to you, you must be an unhappy person
Original post by looloo2134
Yodothis has use vile transphobia language on this tread. I feel sorry any person that hateful toward other people because they are different. They must be an unhappy person.


"Vile transphobia language"? Quote me on it...
Original post by AperfectBalance

We cannot have male meaning Biologically male and male meaning I think I am a man, you cannot change your biological gender at all. so Bruce Jenner is a man who thinks he is a woman.

you cannot just say that you do not follow basic biology and bam the laws of nature and biology are broken for you, and I am sorry but I am not going to further mental illness by being more "inclusive"

And yes - to an extent you are a man because you say you are a man. we are talking about sex, I will refuse to use man to both mean the new idea of "gender identity" and to mean biological sex, you are simply pretending to be a man you are in no way a man because you say you are.

(which incidentally is not black and white - see Caster Semenya)
from what I can see it is a genetic abnormality, so as it states an abnormality and should be treated as so.


If we are going to talk about biology and nature feel free to have a look at the following page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_change

You can refuse to do whatever you like. That is your prerogative. But if by refusing, you end up discriminating, be aware that there are no judges in the land that will empathise with your position.

Just out of curiosity - what is "normal"? Does such a thing actually exist? Are you normal?
Original post by yudothis
"Vile transphobia language"? Quote me on it...


"Because those are men that want to invade spaces women want for themselves."

Not exactly vile, but definitely trans-phobic. Armies invade. Trans-women just want somewhere to have a pee.
Original post by ByEeek
If we are going to talk about biology and nature feel free to have a look at the following page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_change

You can refuse to do whatever you like. That is your prerogative. But if by refusing, you end up discriminating, be aware that there are no judges in the land that will empathise with your position.

Just out of curiosity - what is "normal"? Does such a thing actually exist? Are you normal?



If we are going to talk about biology and nature feel free to have a look at the following page

Ok so actually biological sex change can occur due to pretty rare defects and is often used incorrectly. seems like it backs up my points.


Just out of curiosity - what is "normal"? Does such a thing actually exist? Are you normal?

"the usual, typical, or expected state or condition" Being straight is normal since most people are straight. I like chocolate, a lot of people like chocolate too, it is pretty normal. I really like my meat rare or even blue, not many people do but it is rather normal, I enjoy antique collecting, for people my age that is not normal but is a pretty normal activity overall.

But on the whole I am quite normal although I have a pretty big genetic defect so in that sense no



(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by ByEeek
"Because those are men that want to invade spaces women want for themselves."

Not exactly vile, but definitely trans-phobic. Armies invade. Trans-women just want somewhere to have a pee.


You can invade someones personal space, that does not suggest you stick a knife to their throat and force them to be near you. They also have a place to pee, they have their proper bathroom (whatever sex they actually are) or if they want to go to the disabled toilet
Original post by AperfectBalance

Ok so actually biological sex change can occur due to pretty rare defects and is often used incorrectly. seems like it backs up my points.



Based on the way you are writing, it seems to want to have the ability to put people into boxes of your choosing. If a woman wishes to identify as a man, what business is it of yours?
Original post by ByEeek
"Because those are men that want to invade spaces women want for themselves."

Not exactly vile, but definitely trans-phobic. Armies invade. Trans-women just want somewhere to have a pee.


Many women just want somewhere to pee where there aren't any penises.

Do you see how empty your arguments are?

Let them go to gender neutral toilets, or male toilets. Btw, that is what I am advocating for, simply add a third type of toilet that anyone can use. Women who aren't uncomfortable can use them, those that are, can keep using women's toilets. I will say it again you talk the talk, but you don't walk the walk. You are so for "inclusiveness", but only when it suits you. Many women just want somewhere to pee where there aren't any penises. But that doesn't suit you so you bring some examples of those women that don't care, and you label anyone that questions it, as transphobic. You are such a hypocrite, portraying yourself as some sort of moral apostle and people who disagree get name called. But you turn right round and treat another group as unimportant and attack them and want to silence them (heck you even tried to silence me by accusing me of misogyny because I am a man talking for women, and as a feminist I should let women talk for themselves, super nasty of you). You talk about us apparently forcing our view on everyone, and yet you are doing that very thing when you go around bullying everyone (and threatening them with the law and crimes of discrimination) into buying into this idea where gender is a choice.

And I will keep calling out your hypocrisy.

ps btw, there may be genuine cases of people with gender dysphoria who were born into the wrong body. But there are plenty of cases of perverted men, predatory men, who use transgenderism as an excuse to prey on women. You never mention that either, again because it doesn't suit you.
Original post by ByEeek
Based on the way you are writing, it seems to want to have the ability to put people into boxes of your choosing. If a woman wishes to identify as a man, what business is it of yours?


Nothing. But as soon as that man interacts with women on the basis of him supposedly being a woman, then it affects other people.

You've mentioned this line before. You are a broken record.
Original post by yudothis

Let them go to gender neutral toilets, or male toilets. Btw, that is what I am advocating for, simply add a third type of toilet that anyone can use. Women who aren't uncomfortable can use them, those that are, can keep using women's toilets.


Oh dear - I am somewhat repeating myself here. Why is it only men who seem concerned about women being concerned about trans-women using their toilets? Where are all the women on this thread backing you up? Who are all these concerned women? My wife certainly isn't one of them. Care to name names? Can women not speak for themselves?

And you completely ignored my question about trans-men which leads me to think that the issue is not that of women against trans-men. It is you against trans-men.

How is adding a third toilet simpler than just having one big gender neutral toilet that discriminates against no one?
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by LeslieNOPE
No, it's not- because being gay is a closet-able identity in a way that being a woman or a minority isn't.


You seemed to be saying it would be different for a transwoman in terms of applying for a position in a women's rights group who transitioned at 50 because they would not have experienced the same issues as women who grew up as women. However, that is like saying a Muslim convert at 50 or a gay person who comes out at 50 or someone who becomes disabled at 50 should be treated differently when joining their respective minority rights organisations because they have not experienced the same issues from a young age.
Original post by yudothis
Many women just want somewhere to pee where there aren't any penises.

Do you see how empty your arguments are?

Let them go to gender neutral toilets, or male toilets. Btw, that is what I am advocating for, simply add a third type of toilet that anyone can use. Women who aren't uncomfortable can use them, those that are, can keep using women's toilets. I will say it again you talk the talk, but you don't walk the walk. You are so for "inclusiveness", but only when it suits you. Many women just want somewhere to pee where there aren't any penises. But that doesn't suit you so you bring some examples of those women that don't care, and you label anyone that questions it, as transphobic. You are such a hypocrite, portraying yourself as some sort of moral apostle and people who disagree get name called. But you turn right round and treat another group as unimportant and attack them and want to silence them (heck you even tried to silence me by accusing me of misogyny because I am a man talking for women, and as a feminist I should let women talk for themselves, super nasty of you). You talk about us apparently forcing our view on everyone, and yet you are doing that very thing when you go around bullying everyone (and threatening them with the law and crimes of discrimination) into buying into this idea where gender is a choice.

And I will keep calling out your hypocrisy.

ps btw, there may be genuine cases of people with gender dysphoria who were born into the wrong body. But there are plenty of cases of perverted men, predatory men, who use transgenderism as an excuse to prey on women. You never mention that either, again because it doesn't suit you.


Do you not think that instead of having the policy that makes the majority of people (actually male and want to go to a male bathroom) to have the delightful option of a toilet of their own so the minority (transgenders) get their way that the minority should just go to a disabled bathroom since they are already in most places and far far far fewer people want to use them. It solves everything without having to build or do anything


there may be genuine cases of people with gender dysphoria who were born into the wrong body.
It is a mental illness not an actual case of them being born in the wrong body, the only genuine cases are due to medical and genetic abnormalities that are really rare, certainly not the person saying they are a man and becoming it.
Original post by ByEeek
Oh dear - I am somewhat repeating myself here. Why is it only men who seem concerned about women being concerned about trans-women using their toilets? Where are all the women on this thread backing you up? Who are all these concerned women? My wife certainly isn't one of them. Care to name names? Can women not speak for themselves?

And you completely ignored my question about trans-men which leads me to think that the issue is not that of women against trans-men. It is you against trans-men.

How is adding a third toilet simpler than just having one big gender neutral toilet that discriminates against no one?


We already have a gender neutral toilet just go in the disabled toilet
Original post by ByEeek
Based on the way you are writing, it seems to want to have the ability to put people into boxes of your choosing. If a woman wishes to identify as a man, what business is it of yours?



Well we already have a few predetermined "boxes" and biology supports this, sure if a man wants to say he is a woman he has the right to but I also have the right to say that he is not actually a woman, what business is it of yours?

Same with vegans and other largely annoying groups, go be vegan just dont bother me about it.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by ByEeek
Oh dear - I am somewhat repeating myself here. Why is it only men who seem concerned about women being concerned about trans-women using their toilets? Where are all the women on this thread backing you up? Who are all these concerned women? My wife certainly isn't one of them. Care to name names? Can women not speak for themselves?

And you completely ignored my question about trans-men which leads me to think that the issue is not that of women against trans-men. It is you against trans-men.

How is adding a third toilet simpler than just having one big gender neutral toilet that discriminates against no one?


I have kept saying over and over how empty your arguments are, and you prove it over and over. All you can do is: "you are a man you can't talk for women, my wife (one example) disagrees with you, so every woman must disagree with you".

In addition, you plain up lie. And at the same time you accuse me of ignoring something you said, when you yourself do the very same. And I didn't even do it. I addressed your question about how I feel about trans men in men's rest rooms.

Or just go to feminism chat on Mumsnet, it's full of trans threads these days.

How is one big one simpler than simply adding a third?

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