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Idle question: flags watch

  • View Poll Results: Own one, do ya?
    Yep
    32
    40.51%
    Nah
    47
    59.49%

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    Lol......you are.....champagne socialist implies that you think I'm a hypocrite,when in fact thats very far from the truth.
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    (Original post by Overground)
    Read the signature, TSR Labour Party. One does not have to be Right-Wing to celebrate one's country. National pride unites rather than divides, and can be a symbol of hope and strength and a unification of past and future for everyone who lives in this green and pleasant land. Hopefully as a nation we should be able to overcome and drown out the far-right's hijacking of the Union Jack. Read Billy Bragg's book The Progressive Patriot for more on how flag-waving and being proud of your country is not a remotely right-wing activity, but we just have a negative attitude towards it in our country.

    On your second point, being proud of your country has nothing to do with resisting foreign influences... but more to the point where I come from, it's spelt and pronounced M-O-M!
    Labour are fairly right wing these days, so that doesn't really mean anything. National pride unites... AGAINST someone else and UNDER the power of the government. It's there to create the right atmosphere for war, and to get people to actually sign up to fight for their "country". It's a government tool. That's all, nothing else. Besides, why be proud of being born in a particular country? You didn't choose to be born here. I can understand considering yourself lucky to be born here (as opposed to, say, the Congo) but proud?

    As for the landscape... wow, there's some pretty countryside in the UK. Just like the rest of the world. And, just like the rest of the world, it'll be gone soon. Where's the reason for pride?
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    yeah i have a paper one.. which i dont actually know where i got from! meh
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    Mcdonalds.
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    (Original post by punktopia)
    Labour are fairly right wing these days, so that doesn't really mean anything. National pride unites... AGAINST someone else and UNDER the power of the government. It's there to create the right atmosphere for war, and to get people to actually sign up to fight for their "country". It's a government tool. That's all, nothing else. Besides, why be proud of being born in a particular country? You didn't choose to be born here. I can understand considering yourself lucky to be born here (as opposed to, say, the Congo) but proud?

    As for the landscape... wow, there's some pretty countryside in the UK. Just like the rest of the world. And, just like the rest of the world, it'll be gone soon. Where's the reason for pride?
    Pride: 'pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself'

    Yes, I can take pleasure and satisfaction in the good things that this country has done and the way that on the whole it is a good influence in the World. Although far from perfect and many blemishes to its name, Britain has been a force of stability, unity and fairness throughout history.

    Peope don't have to be brainwashed by government's to fight in a just war. In World War Two, our country was under direct thread from an outside influence (and yes, they were foreign). People wanted to fight to protect themselves and their family from an oppressive regime. Yes the government encourages this, but with good reason. Also government influence can only go so far - thousands of people people WANT to protect their country.
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    I'd never own an England flag, I'd consider European flag though, if only for flying over our tents at Leeds Fest.
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    (Original post by Overground)
    Pride: 'pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself'

    Yes, I can take pleasure and satisfaction in the good things that this country has done and the way that on the whole it is a good influence in the World. Although far from perfect and many blemishes to its name, Britain has been a force of stability, unity and fairness throughout history.

    Peope don't have to be brainwashed by government's to fight in a just war. In World War Two, our country was under direct thread from an outside influence (and yes, they were foreign). People wanted to fight to protect themselves and their family from an oppressive regime. Yes the government encourages this, but with good reason. Also government influence can only go so far - thousands of people people WANT to protect their country.
    Britain, a force of stability, unity and fairness? Come on. Aside from all the colonial "mishaps", the genocides, the concentration camps (Britain invented the first, dontcherknow) slavery (so Britain was amongst the first to make it illegal... they still kept slaves for a period of time) there's little things like the Israel/Palestine conflict and the India/Pakistan conflict.

    As for your thousands of people who WANT to protect the country, do they want to because of their own free will, or because they've been carefully brainwashed by the government, media and rest of society into thinking it's jolly good fun to die for your country?

    Y'know, there's one thing Britain does excel at. Giving people the illusion of freedom, free will and democracy.
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    (Original post by punktopia)
    Britain, a force of stability, unity and fairness? Come on. Aside from all the colonial "mishaps", the genocides, the concentration camps (Britain invented the first, dontcherknow) slavery (so Britain was amongst the first to make it illegal... they still kept slaves for a period of time) there's little things like the Israel/Palestine conflict and the India/Pakistan conflict.

    As for your thousands of people who WANT to protect the country, do they want to because of their own free will, or because they've been carefully brainwashed by the government, media and rest of society into thinking it's jolly good fun to die for your country?

    Y'know, there's one thing Britain does excel at. Giving people the illusion of freedom, free will and democracy.
    I'm not condoning the actions of Empire. But yes, overall Britain has promoted fairness and justice more than a lot of countries and less than some.

    Britain was one of the originators of parliamentary democracy, abolition of slavery and the death penalty, invented countless life-saving inventions, and has generally punched considerably above its weight for a country consisting of about 1% of the world's population.

    Well in extreme cases it may genuinely be for the greater good to die to save one's country. Resisting foreign attack and invasion to preserve our way of life is worth our lives in my opinion.

    Anarchists are remarkably selfish.
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    (Original post by punktopia)
    the concentration camps (Britain invented the first, dontcherknow)
    No they didn't. The idea is as old as organised human conflict itself. Britain was the first to use the term 'concentration camp', and actually had quite noble motives for creating then, to wit: to remove civilians from the conflict areas.

    The only problem is that they failed to make allowances for the fact that, in densely populated conditions, disease spreads like wildfire. That's why the public were outraged and they had them closed.

    slavery (so Britain was amongst the first to make it illegal... they still kept slaves for a period of time)
    So in fact, we have as much culpability as... well... everyone else in the world?

    there's little things like the Israel/Palestine conflict and the India/Pakistan conflict.
    Caused by an absence of British imperialism really.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    No they didn't. The idea is as old as organised human conflict itself. Britain was the first to use the term 'concentration camp', and actually had quite noble motives for creating then, to wit: to remove civilians from the conflict areas.

    The only problem is that they failed to make allowances for the fact that, in densely populated conditions, disease spreads like wildfire. That's why the public were outraged and they had them closed.



    So in fact, we have as much culpability as... well... everyone else in the world?



    Caused by an absence of British imperialism really.
    There are nations in the world who haven't kept slaves. And it's very arrogant to assume that India and Pakistan would be better off under British rule - not to mention wrong (at least, unless you support dictatorship). It's basically pointless arguing with nationalists; you're convinced the country can't put a foot wrong, and no amount of proof I throw at you will dissuade you. I just wish people wouldn't blindly trust their government so much.
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    (Original post by Overground)
    I'm not condoning the actions of Empire. But yes, overall Britain has promoted fairness and justice more than a lot of countries and less than some.

    Britain was one of the originators of parliamentary democracy, abolition of slavery and the death penalty, invented countless life-saving inventions, and has generally punched considerably above its weight for a country consisting of about 1% of the world's population.

    Well in extreme cases it may genuinely be for the greater good to die to save one's country. Resisting foreign attack and invasion to preserve our way of life is worth our lives in my opinion.

    Anarchists are remarkably selfish.
    Do you know what an anarchist is? I think many anarchists would die to preserve their ideals... just not for some propaganda about how they "belong" to a "country" (it's basic social psychology, the "us" and "them" mentality). Why should we preserve our way of life? What do you even mean by that? Change happens, or at least, it should happen. Tradition is often wrong and misguided, or something that only seemed appropiate within the historical context. In the greatest extremes, it's downright barbaric.

    If you're talking about WW2, then yes, I can sort of see the point of fighting to preserve a society which is (somewhat) more free than the alternative. However, all wars are avoidable. Hitler should never have risen to power in the first place, and it's arguably Britain's fault (along with the US and Soviet Union) that he did.
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    (Original post by punktopia)
    There are nations in the world who haven't kept slaves.
    Throughout their entire history? I think these are a tiny minority, if indeed any do exist.

    And it's very arrogant to assume that India and Pakistan would be better off under British rule
    I didn't say that, you implied that the conflict between Pakistan and India was caused by the British; I said quite the opposite. I think it's rather obvious considering the conflict began in the main the second the British left.

    - not to mention wrong (at least, unless you support dictatorship).
    Well I disagree with you and do not support dictatorships in the normal course of things. So there you go.

    It's basically pointless arguing with nationalists
    I'm not a nationalist.

    you're convinced the country can't put a foot wrong, and no amount of proof I throw at you will dissuade you. I just wish people wouldn't blindly trust their government so much.
    Would you like a list of all the things the country is doing wrong that I'd like to complain about?

    I fear we'd be here all evening.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    Throughout their entire history? I think these are a tiny minority, if indeed any do exist.



    I didn't say that, you implied that the conflict between Pakistan and India was caused by the British; I said quite the opposite. I think it's rather obvious considering the conflict began in the main the second the British left.



    Well I disagree with you and do not support dictatorships in the normal course of things. So there you go.



    I'm not a nationalist.



    Would you like a list of all the things the country is doing wrong that I'd like to complain about?

    I fear we'd be here all evening.
    Go for it. Don't forget all the things Britain has done wrong during its "glorious" past.
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    Our net contribution is a positive, not a negative, value.
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    I have an Irish Tricolour and a German Schwarz-Rot-Gold. No Union Jack or St George's though. I blame my 4 immigrant Grandparents.
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    (Original post by punktopia)
    Do you know what an anarchist is? I think many anarchists would die to preserve their ideals... just not for some propaganda about how they "belong" to a "country" (it's basic social psychology, the "us" and "them" mentality). Why should we preserve our way of life? What do you even mean by that? Change happens, or at least, it should happen. Tradition is often wrong and misguided, or something that only seemed appropiate within the historical context. In the greatest extremes, it's downright barbaric.

    If you're talking about WW2, then yes, I can sort of see the point of fighting to preserve a society which is (somewhat) more free than the alternative. However, all wars are avoidable. Hitler should never have risen to power in the first place, and it's arguably Britain's fault (along with the US and Soviet Union) that he did.
    Anarchy is an idealistic theory, like Communism, that does not work in practice. For a shining example of anarchy see Somalia.
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    (Original post by Overground)
    Anarchy is an idealistic theory, like Communism, that does not work in practice. For a shining example of anarchy see Somalia.
    Anarchy is a term that is misused and misunderstood. Anarchism as a political ideology could work in practice, just not quite yet.
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    (Original post by punktopia)
    Anarchy is a term that is misused and misunderstood. Anarchism as a political ideology could work in practice, just not quite yet.
    Explain what it really is then.
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    You can start with wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist
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    I have two saltires, one small one large, plus one tricolore. The saltires were both up on my wall at uni at different points, the tricolore was up on my wall at home. No idea where any of them are at the moment.


    Oh, and saltire = Scotland, tricolore = France for those who didn't know.
 
 
 
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