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Have the Tories accepted the Single Market? Latest news.

Britain has apparently just accepted that Northern Ireland will continue to have full regulatory alignment to the Republic of Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/dec/04/theresa-may-heads-to-brussels-hoping-to-conclude-phase-one-of-brexit-talks-politics-live

It's highly improbable that this can happen without the UK continuing to have full regulatory alignment with the EU.

That means continuation of the Single Market and European court rulings.

The ludicrous hard Brexiteers, people like Nigel Lawson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Duncan-Smith, are about to have apoplexy.

This was inevitable though, because there is no way we can leave the Single Market without a hard NI/Ireland border and the latter is impractical and unacceptable to all concerned.

It's all down to Ireland again! In British Isles affairs, it always is.

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Original post by Fullofsurprises
Britain has apparently just accepted that Northern Ireland will continue to have full regulatory alignment to the Republic of Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/dec/04/theresa-may-heads-to-brussels-hoping-to-conclude-phase-one-of-brexit-talks-politics-live

It's highly improbable that this can happen without the UK continuing to have full regulatory alignment with the EU.

That means continuation of the Single Market and European court rulings.

The ludicrous hard Brexiteers, people like Nigel Lawson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Duncan-Smith, are about to have apoplexy.

This was inevitable though, because there is no way we can leave the Single Market without a hard NI/Ireland border and the latter is impractical and unacceptable to all concerned.

It's all down to Ireland again! In British Isles affairs, it always is.


"Gladstone spent his declining years trying to guess the answer to the Irish question; unfortunately, whenever he was getting warm, the Irish secretly changed the question"
The Republic of Ireland is behaving quite oddly

Insisting another country agree to a deal that doesnt involve a border madness.

Doesnt help that UK govt is negotiating position is being undermined by devolved assemblies and london
Original post by hannah00
The Republic of Ireland is behaving quite oddly



Clause 1 of the Irish Constitution:-

"England's difficulty is Ireland's
opportunity"
It is entirely possible for NI to have alignment without NI (and EU) having alignment with GB. NI historically has been legally distinct from E&W and Scotland on a great many matters.
Original post by Notorious_B.I.G.
It is entirely possible for NI to have alignment without NI (and EU) having alignment with GB. NI historically has been legally distinct from E&W and Scotland on a great many matters.


When the RUC became the PSNI the DUP successfully campaigned for the new force to retain its British bottle green uniform rather than adopt an alien dark blue.
Original post by Notorious_B.I.G.
It is entirely possible for NI to have alignment without NI (and EU) having alignment with GB. NI historically has been legally distinct from E&W and Scotland on a great many matters.


In this instance, it would be very, very difficult. The effect of harmonising NI and Ireland, but not the mainland UK, would be to create a hard border with customs, etc, between NI and the mainland - the DUP have already firmly ruled that out and the current government is totally dependent on the DUP to stay in office.

In addition, it would be fiendishly difficult to manage such a border, which would leak like the proverbial sieve and be utterly unacceptable to the EU, resulting in potentially large sanctions against Dublin. Therefore such a scheme would quickly collapse as unworkable anyway.

A single market of Ireland and Northern Ireland means that the UK is staying in the EU single market.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
In this instance, it would be very, very difficult. The effect of harmonising NI and Ireland, but not the mainland UK, would be to create a hard border with customs, etc, between NI and the mainland - the DUP have already firmly ruled that out and the current government is totally dependent on the DUP to stay in office.

In addition, it would be fiendishly difficult to manage such a border, which would leak like the proverbial sieve and be utterly unacceptable to the EU, resulting in potentially large sanctions against Dublin. Therefore such a scheme would quickly collapse as unworkable anyway.

A single market of Ireland and Northern Ireland means that the UK is staying in the EU single market.


I understood that you think that from your first post. But you've not explained why, other than in some buzzwords.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
In this instance, it would be very, very difficult. The effect of harmonising NI and Ireland, but not the mainland UK, would be to create a hard border with customs, etc, between NI and the mainland - the DUP have already firmly ruled that out and the current government is totally dependent on the DUP to stay in office.

In addition, it would be fiendishly difficult to manage such a border, which would leak like the proverbial sieve and be utterly unacceptable to the EU, resulting in potentially large sanctions against Dublin. Therefore such a scheme would quickly collapse as unworkable anyway.

A single market of Ireland and Northern Ireland means that the UK is staying in the EU single market.


How in any way would it be hard to manage a potential border? and why is it not possible that we enter into some kind of special arrangement, but in all honesty we cannot let NI and Ireland rule us just as they tried to remove themselves from us
Original post by AperfectBalance
How in any way would it be hard to manage a potential border? and why is it not possible that we enter into some kind of special arrangement, but in all honesty we cannot let NI and Ireland rule us just as they tried to remove themselves from us


As long as there has been a border the Irish have smuggled across it. A little bit of red diesel and a few head of cattle was not economically significant. The problem is that this will be the border between the world's largest trading bloc and one of the world's great economic powers. How many smartphones intended for the Slovak market will travel China-> Felixstowe ->Stranraer/Port Ryan -> Larne -> a country lane between Fermanagh and Cavan -> Dublin -> Rotterdam -> Bratislava?
Original post by nulli tertius
As long as there has been a border the Irish have smuggled across it. A little bit of red diesel and a few head of cattle was not economically significant. The problem is that this will be the border between the world's largest trading bloc and one of the world's great economic powers. How many smartphones intended for the Slovak market will travel China-> Felixstowe ->Stranraer/Port Ryan -> Larne -> a country lane between Fermanagh and Cavan -> Dublin -> Rotterdam -> Bratislava?


Just the same for any other EU country that borders a non EU country.
and shipping will actually be harder since it will have to enter and exit ports for most things and any other ways are a bit too risky
Original post by AperfectBalance
Just the same for any other EU country that borders a non EU country.
and shipping will actually be harder since it will have to enter and exit ports for most things and any other ways are a bit too risky


All of which, with the exception of Norway/Sweden have a hard border and in most cases that border is a Schengen border. Norway/Sweden is the only attempt at a virtual border and there isn't the same tradition of smuggling on that border as there is in Ireland.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/fuel-laundering-tobacco-smuggling-costing-1bn-annually-1.2114673
Reply 12
Avatar for DJKL
DJKL
17
Original post by nulli tertius
All of which, with the exception of Norway/Sweden have a hard border and in most cases that border is a Schengen border. Norway/Sweden is the only attempt at a virtual border and there isn't the same tradition of smuggling on that border as there is in Ireland.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/fuel-laundering-tobacco-smuggling-costing-1bn-annually-1.2114673


But there are the "discount" stores, as the Norwegians probably view them, on the Swedish side, the somewhat weird drive North from Sweden, not a lot beside the road, then a handy shopping centre with car park just before one sweeps into Norway, reduce speed and continue on one's journey.

The Norwegians love a bargain, when DFDS sailed Sweden-Norway-Newcastle, North Shields buzzed with the Norwegians flashing their cash, loading up, and then taking the ferry home again.
Original post by DJKL
But there are the "discount" stores, as the Norwegians probably view them, on the Swedish side, the somewhat weird drive North from Sweden, not a lot beside the road, then a handy shopping centre with car park just before one sweeps into Norway, reduce speed and continue on one's journey.

The Norwegians love a bargain, when DFDS sailed Sweden-Norway-Newcastle, North Shields buzzed with the Norwegians flashing their cash, loading up, and then taking the ferry home again.


Yes but that is wholly different from a culture of smuggling. There is some smuggling mostly of alcohol on the land border but the quantities are trivial.
Reply 14
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DJKL
17
Original post by nulli tertius
Yes but that is wholly different from a culture of smuggling. There is some smuggling mostly of alcohol on the land border but the quantities are trivial.


Alcohol must be really tricky to smuggle, it is pretty hard to get hold of in either country. I cannot really say I have ever seen anyone nipping into the Systembolaget with a forty foot lorry.
Original post by DJKL
Alcohol must be really tricky to smuggle, it is pretty hard to get hold of in either country. I cannot really say I have ever seen anyone nipping into the Systembolaget with a forty foot lorry.


When I first went to Helsingor before the bridge was built, I was expecting it to be the twin of Stratford. Instead the town rattled. Every shop was an off-licence and there wasn't enough room in the shops for the crates of empties. That has died down somewhat now and the Sassnitz ferry is a much less pleasant experience. In Helsingor you could buy any booze from anywhere in the world. In Sassnitz it is all about selling cheap beer in industrial quantities with a real safety risk of being crushed by a trolley on the ship's gangplank.
(edited 6 years ago)
What would be the point of Brexit without leaving the single market.

Might as well just save everyone the hassle and stop the whole thing, if we are staying in the single market.
Reply 17
Avatar for DJKL
DJKL
17
Original post by nulli tertius
When I first went to Helsingor before the bridge was built, I was expecting it to be the twin of Stratford. Instead the town rattled. Every shop was an off-licence and there wasn't enough room in the shops for the crates of empties. That has died down somewhat now and the Sassnitz ferry is a much less pleasant experience. In Helsingor you could buy any booze from anywhere in the world. In Sassnitz it is all about selling cheap beer in industrial quantities with a real safety risk of being crushed by a trolley on the ship's gangplank.


We visited the castle at Helsingor when the kids were small, the only older building they ever really enjoyed visiting as it has a chequered floor similar to Mario's Castle in the N64 game.

Have not been to Sassnitz but did go to Germany via Keil this summer as travelled from our house in Sweden to my son's flat in Frankfurt.

German beer is certainly worth the drive, on the way to Sweden we stopped over on Fenharm, the drive from Rotterdam to Sweden now being too long for me to do in one session, I now need a sleep half way there.

Real shame no ferries left to Scandinavia from the UK.
Original post by DJKL
We visited the castle at Helsingor when the kids were small, the only older building they ever really enjoyed visiting as it has a chequered floor similar to Mario's Castle in the N64 game.

Have not been to Sassnitz but did go to Germany via Keil this summer as travelled from our house in Sweden to my son's flat in Frankfurt.

German beer is certainly worth the drive, on the way to Sweden we stopped over on Fenharm, the drive from Rotterdam to Sweden now being too long for me to do in one session, I now need a sleep half way there.

Real shame no ferries left to Scandinavia from the UK.


I was annoyed because I was looking for an opportunity to catch the Immingham Norway ferry but they closed it to foot passengers earlier this year.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Britain has apparently just accepted that Northern Ireland will continue to have full regulatory alignment to the Republic of Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/dec/04/theresa-may-heads-to-brussels-hoping-to-conclude-phase-one-of-brexit-talks-politics-live

It's highly improbable that this can happen without the UK continuing to have full regulatory alignment with the EU.

That means continuation of the Single Market and European court rulings.

The ludicrous hard Brexiteers, people like Nigel Lawson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Duncan-Smith, are about to have apoplexy.

This was inevitable though, because there is no way we can leave the Single Market without a hard NI/Ireland border and the latter is impractical and unacceptable to all concerned.

It's all down to Ireland again! In British Isles affairs, it always is.


You’re going to feel stupid for writing this post within a week

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