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Chancellor suggests disabled workers are suppressing economic productivity

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Original post by gjd800
This is being divorced from context and read into far too deeply.
Which is what tends to happen when people can't properly disagree. They nit-pick at minor details to try and bring the whole thing down.
Reply 41
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gjd800
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Original post by 04MR17
Which is what tends to happen when people can't properly disagree. They nit-pick at minor details to try and bring the whole thing down.


Quite.
Original post by 04MR17
I don't take offence, he's a Conservative, it's to be expected. Anyone who takes offence shouldn't be so surprised by this.

Here's some numbers:

2015, 2016, 2017, 2020

All promises from Conservative chancellors to have the books balance by. Last I checked, this hasn't happened yet. The Conservative's strategy doesn't seem to be working.

He did not claim that holding back productivity is a good thing. And if he did, economically he'd be incorrect.


So, to be clear, this is how this went:

You (OP and other posts): I am disabled and this is very low! Look, he says disabled people are to blame for the bad economy!

Me: Here's what he actually meant, in context.

You: B-but he's a Conservative! He said the deficit would be gone in 2017!

I don't even know what to say to the 'productivity is good' part other than I suggest you re-read what I actually said.

Thanks for a very enlightening exchange.

Original post by 04MR17
Which is what tends to happen when people can't properly disagree. They nit-pick at minor details to try and bring the whole thing down.


Drawing out what he actually said, in context, is not nit-picking on minor details.
Reply 43
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Joep95
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Original post by TimmonaPortella
So, to be clear, this is how this went:

You (OP and other posts): I am disabled and this is very low! Look, he says disabled people are to blame for the bad economy!

Me: Here's what he actually meant, in context.

You: B-but he's a Conservative! He said the deficit would be gone in 2017!

I don't even know what to say to the 'productivity is good' part other than I suggest you re-read what I actually said.

Thanks for a very enlightening exchange.



Drawing out what he actually said, in context, is not nit-picking on minor details.


I think he is talking about himself, he is picking at a minor detail and misrepresenting it.
Original post by joecphillips
I think he is talking about himself, he is picking at a minor detail and misrepresenting it.
Then by that logic so have the independent, the guardian and sky, who all ran with similar headlines.
the real reason for low uk productivity, is people are paid to do jobs, that in other countries are just not done.

In work benefits, means employers hire people to do jobs in the UK, that in other countries such roles dont exist.

I prefer it this way, than the US model of declining labour participation over the past 30 years, we have increased it.
this is very weird..

A conservative chancellor has said one of the most left-wing things possible..

And the left hate him for it?

He said:

Disabled people are on average less productive overall then able people (hard to disagree with, on average)
But that doesn't matter, because being inclusive within the workforce is more important then productivity. (very left-wing)
And overall, productivity is not the best measure...

Its a ridiculously anti-conservative thing to say, that should have the right wing screaming at him, not the left. But we are so tribal in our politics that the left will still try and spin this around to be a bad thing, and the right will still try and spin this to be a good thing.

I mean christ, he said it was a good thing that we are all a bit poorer, as long as some of the worst off are included better... its such a left wing idea.. and yet you hate it.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by TimmonaPortella
He goes on in the clip provided by the Independent to question the centrality of productivity as a measure of success at all, entirely on the basis that it is a good thing that more people, including disabled people, are getting into work.
This is ironic given that last year the same Chancellor said productivity is "the central theme" of his economic strategy.

Similarly on productivity earlier in the select committee meeting the Chancellor said this:
"It is much more than a measurement problem. I think we have a fundamental productivity problem."
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by fallen_acorns
Disabled people are on average less productive overall then able people (hard to disagree with, on average)
But that doesn't matter, because being inclusive within the workforce is more important then productivity. (very left-wing)
And overall, productivity is not the best measure...

Its a ridiculously anti-conservative thing to say, that should have the right wing screaming at him, not the left. But we are so tribal in our politics that the left will still try and spin this around to be a bad thing, and the right will still try and spin this to be a good thing.

I mean christ, he said it was a good thing that we are all a bit poorer, as long as some of the worst off are included better... its such a left wing idea.. and yet you hate it.
I don't describe myself as being on the left and I actively reject tribal politics.

Firstly you assume that disabled people are "worst off". This is a big generalisation in my view.

As evidenced in my post above, the Chancellor has demonstrated contradictory opinions towards productivity and having listened to the meeting it would seem to me that he went out of his way to include this point about employment, when he was essentially only asked about whether productivity was under-measured.
Original post by 04MR17
I don't describe myself as being on the left and I actively reject tribal politics.

Firstly you assume that disabled people are "worst off". This is a big generalisation in my view.

As evidenced in my post above, the Chancellor has demonstrated contradictory opinions towards productivity and having listened to the meeting it would seem to me that he went out of his way to include this point about employment, when he was essentially only asked about whether productivity was under-measured.


I agree with your point about the Chancellor demonstrating inconsistency. In my eyes he is a weak and uninspiring chancellor who has never seemed fit to lead us forward.

My point was just regarding this statement, that it is a very left-leaning statement.

I do believe that disabled people are on average worse off then able people. It is a generalization, of course it is, you are talking about a huge group of people in a collective manner, any statement you make, positive or negative is a generalization, unless you either list them individual, or refuse to comment. Stating that disabled people are equally as productive as able people is just as generalized as the opposite.

For me its fairly obvious that on average disabled people are less productive then able people. Its not their fault, just a reality of their situation. Now, that's not to say all disabled people in every job are not as productive. There are many disabilities where you can be just as productive as any able person, just by choosing the right job. For example a person who is unable to walk, choosing a job that requires sitting down, would not be at all disadvantaged. But there are some disabilities which inhibit your ability to do the vast majority of jobs.. and equally their are some disabled individuals who are forced into working in unfavorable environments because they cannot secure the more favorable work, and these pull down the average.

The important thing though, is that this is not a bad thing. Its just a cold state of reality, that those less able will on average be less productive. As a society we then deal with it, and the best way we can deal with it is to say 'Ok, lets accept that we will all be slightly worse off, so that we can make the lives of the needy better'. Its a compassionate ideal that I fully agree with.

Whats not compassionate is to ignore the problem, and pretend it doesn't exist by imagining that disabled individuals are as a group equally productive to able individuals despite the clear reasoning against it. The proper way forward is you except the reality, even if it is not positive, but then you make the compassionate decisions that are best for all.
Quite hitler of him :facepalm2: absolute idiot
Original post by D3LLI5
You’re trying to weasel your way out of the fact that this thread is slander. Try and excuse it however you want, what you’re doing is immoral and degenerate. If you were being slandered I’m not sure you would be so willing to let it stand


Ha. **** off and tell phil then.
Can you provide any evidence showing that disabled people are, on average, more productive than the average worker? I doubt it, that goes both for you being able to find the information and it being so.

What you're doing is getting triggered by facts.
Original post by Rinsed
Productivity stats are not the end goal of the economy.
Correct, productivity is simply "the central theme" of Hammond's economic strategy.
Original post by Rinsed
No. Productivity is a statistic which is an imperfect proxy for economic health. The government wants to increase the productivity of workers, it also wants to raise employment. The latter has a negative effect on the productivity statistic but is an obvious economic good. It does not 'drag down' the productivity of other workers, nor the economy as a whole, and the fact that you can't differentiate between these very different effects speaks to your lack of economic understanding.

I can assure you that the chancellor does know the difference which you are unable to grasp. It is perfectly possible to pursue both ends at the same time.
Those were the Chancellor's words (last year). Not mine. Disagree with him.
Original post by Rinsed
The problem is not his words, which were perfectly sensible. Disabled employment does have an impact on the productivity statistic and it's perfectly sensible to mention that. He is categorically not saying 'therefore disabled people are the problem'. Indeed he spoke about raising disabled employment levels as something the government can be proud of.

The problem is your attempt to gratuitously read some malign motive into his words which isn't there.
I don't think it's perfectly sensible to say as a Chancellor that productivity will be the central theme of your economic strategy, and then a year question productivity as a measurement of success at all. Do you?
Original post by Rinsed
You don't think it's sensible for the chancellor to state things which influence an important statistic?

OK then...
I don't think it's sensible to provide contradictory statements. No.
Original post by Rinsed
They're not even slightly contradictory.

The government wants to raise the output of workers, which is a real thing. The productivity stats are a measure of this but the fact that people come into and out of the workforce also has an effect.

Hard to see a contradiction there. Care to point it out?
Just to confirm, you can't see a contradiction between:

- productivity will be the central theme of our economic strategy

- the productivity measure isn't the important thing
What can we learn from all this hmmm. Don't be disabled, done be poor and if your both of them your screwed. thats life. Oh and vote Conservative. Strong n Stable! .................................. Or how just weak n wobbly going to be replaced soon.
(edited 6 years ago)

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