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Oxford teacher investigated for 'misgendering' to sue school

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Original post by ThatOldGuy

Am I allowed to say to someone who claims to be married but is not, ,"You aren't married. You are delusional."? The answer to that is, of course, that I am allowed to say that.


Yawn. This really is so dull. Do you not know what discrimination is? You can say what you like to whoever you like. That would just count as you being a d1ck and insulting someone because it is your right!

But if you owned a shop and decided not to serve someone because they are gay, or you owned a pub but said a trans-woman couldn't use the women's toilet because of your own thoughts and beliefs, you would be breaking the law. It isn't rocket science. You just want to argue the toss.
Original post by Good bloke
Other than that the act applies only to the supply of services and in employment, not to ordinary citizens in their private lives.


Exactly - so you can say and do whatever you like. But why would you? What have you to gain from being an @rse to other people?
Original post by ByEeek
Yawn. This really is so dull. Do you not know what discrimination is? You can say what you like to whoever you like. That would just count as you being a d1ck and insulting someone because it is your right!

But if you owned a shop and decided not to serve someone because they are gay, or you owned a pub but said a trans-woman couldn't use the women's toilet because of your own thoughts and beliefs, you would be breaking the law. It isn't rocket science. You just want to argue the toss.


Can you?

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/canadian-lawmakers-pass-bill-extending-transgender-protections-n773421

You can be arrested in Canada for 'misgendering'.

You can face hate crime in the UK for the ill-defined term 'abuse' for someone 'because of your transgender identity':

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/hate-crime/sexual-orientation-and-transgender-identity-hate-crime/

Would you like to clarify your position on how it's okay to be a d1ck?
Original post by ThatOldGuy
By definition, mutilation is a negative health outcome. And you -still- haven't said whether or not you would change your mind if I showed negative health outcomes for people who underwent the procedure.


I didn't answer because it's an irrelevant question - someone with only one arm for instance is worse off than someone with two; the loss of functionality is genuine. A woman is not worse off than a man or vice versa.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/


Direct quote:


Rates up to 50%, including in Australia.

Not close to what you claimed though, you claimed:

Original post by ThatOldGuy
but real and genuine concern for a group that has over a 50% attempted suicide rate post-surgery,


None of what you've cited says POST-surgery. It's lifetime or pre a certain age, none of which can be extrapolated to a post-surgery rate. Lying about suicide rates to discourage people from pursuing a life they'd rather have is not genuine concern by any stretch of the imagination.
Original post by ThatOldGuy
Can you?

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/canadian-lawmakers-pass-bill-extending-transgender-protections-n773421

You can be arrested in Canada for 'misgendering'.

You can face hate crime in the UK for the ill-defined term 'abuse' for someone 'because of your transgender identity':

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/hate-crime/sexual-orientation-and-transgender-identity-hate-crime/

Would you like to clarify your position on how it's okay to be a d1ck?


I put it you. In what situation would you want to misgender someone or verbally abuse someone. Why can't you just be nice?

I seriously question someone who tries to defend their right to be horrid to someone. Is that really what democracy and society are about? Defending the right to live in the bottom of the barrel?
Original post by ThatOldGuy

Am I allowed to say to someone who claims to be married but is not, ,"You aren't married. You are delusional."? The answer to that is, of course, that I am allowed to say that.

Am I allowed to say to someone who claims to be a woman but is not, "You aren't a woman. You are delusional." The answer to that is that you are not. That could constitute harassment.


Except you're not applying the same standard to these. In the former you're appealing to legality, in the latter you're rejecting it.

If you went round insisting to same-sex married couples that "You aren't married. You are delusional." because you personally believe only opposite-sex marriages are real, then that most certainly could constitute harassment.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by Studystix
incidents like this are ridiculous, the only way someone would know what gender they were if they wore labels, some teachers can only just remember the names of their students, of course some of them won't remember the gender they identify as!


Thing is though, it wasn't just a one-off forgetful mistake. It was a repeated that the teacher admitted he was doing deliberately for ideological reasons. He chose to go on national TV and say all this. At every opportunity, he's chosen to try to go on some religious-ideological crusade rather than just saying "Sorry for getting it wrong, I'll try not to let it happen again."
Original post by shadowdweller
There's nothing to offend the teacher though, that's the crux of the matter here - yes maybe they don't believe in people being transgender, but it's not inherently offensive for them to use 'he' instead. Again, no one is asking them to start protesting trans rights, they're just expecting a basic level of decency.

If someone changed their name, would you support the teacher calling them by their old name because they didn't believe in deed polls?


You don't think being compelled to join in a charade to appease a young persons feigned outrage isn't offense? I do. The whole thing is a farce and it has to stop.
Original post by oldercon1953
You don't think being compelled to join in a charade to appease a young persons feigned outrage isn't offense? I do. The whole thing is a farce and it has to stop.


What exactly is he being "compelled" to do that he isn't already compelled to do as part of his regular job? It's not like he signed up to only teach girls and objects to having to use male pronouns in general. He seems to be in a position where his gender-appropriate interaction with pupils needs to be no more extensive than remembering to say he/she and boy/girl. It's not difficult.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by oldercon1953
You don't think being compelled to join in a charade to appease a young persons feigned outrage isn't offense? I do. The whole thing is a farce and it has to stop.


Perhaps that's because you believe it to be a charade, where medical evidence and background does not.
Original post by oldercon1953
You don't think being compelled to join in a charade to appease a young persons feigned outrage isn't offense? I do. The whole thing is a farce and it has to stop.


If he can't come up with a more eloquent way to express his thoughts than insulting and humiliating school children then perhaps he should just be quiet.
Original post by shadowdweller
Perhaps that's because you believe it to be a charade, where medical evidence and background does not.


not saying it's a farce. i believe that persons story is as real as any ones. I'm saying we have to stop bending every time someone shouts their offended. You don't have a right to not be offended.
Original post by anarchism101
What exactly is he being "compelled" to do that he isn't already compelled to do as part of his regular job? It's not like he signed up to only teach girls and objects to having to use male pronouns in general. He seems to be in a position where his gender-appropriate interaction with pupils needs to be no more extensive than remembering to say he/she and boy/girl. It's not difficult.


The teacher is being asked to join in a lie. the"she" is still a he whether she likes it or not. We're not what we think we are. we are what we are.
Original post by oldercon1953
not saying it's a farce. i believe that persons story is as real as any ones. I'm saying we have to stop bending every time someone shouts their offended. You don't have a right to not be offended.


And yet you're arguing that the teacher has justification for being offended in this scenario? At the end of the day the teacher doesn't really have a leg to stand on in my view, using a preferred pronoun takes absolutely no effort on their behalf, and they don't even have to agree with it to do so, so their complaint against doing so is a bit obsolete.
Original post by shadowdweller
And yet you're arguing that the teacher has justification for being offended in this scenario? At the end of the day the teacher doesn't really have a leg to stand on in my view, using a preferred pronoun takes absolutely no effort on their behalf, and they don't even have to agree with it to do so, so their complaint against doing so is a bit obsolete.


If that teacher is forced to participate in one students fantasy than yes he has every right to be offended. Common sense is never obsolete.
Original post by oldercon1953
If that teacher is forced to participate in one students fantasy than yes he has every right to be offended. Common sense is never obsolete.


Except you have no reason to believe it's a fantasy. Additionally, even if it were, then it's by no means offensive to engage in it; if someone changed their name, would you think it offensive for the teacher to actually use that correct new name?
Original post by shadowdweller
Except you have no reason to believe it's a fantasy. Additionally, even if it were, then it's by no means offensive to engage in it; if someone changed their name, would you think it offensive for the teacher to actually use that correct new name?


That student will always be female. till the day she dies. Calling her anything else is a lie and a fantasy. Her fantasy. Don't ask anyone else to participate.
Original post by oldercon1953
That student will always be female. till the day she dies. Calling her anything else is a lie and a fantasy. Her fantasy. Don't ask anyone else to participate.


Again, medical evidence entirely contradicts you.
Original post by shadowdweller
Again, medical evidence entirely contradicts you.


she will always carry a y chromosone.
Original post by oldercon1953
she will always carry a y chromosone.


Firstly, genetic females carry XX, assuming that's the point you're trying to make.

Secondly, and more importantly, that is of no relevance to whether we should treat him as male.

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