Would a more centrist Labour be polling higher now? Watch

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username3672344
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#61
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#61
(Original post by JMR2017)
No, Labour is a socialist party of the left, and it should stay that way.
I don't disagree. I do wonder why people seem to have such a problem with a traditionally left wing party being left wing.

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Rakas21
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#62
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#62
(Original post by DeBruyne18)
I don't disagree. I do wonder why people see to have such a problem with a traditionally left wing party being left wing.

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Becaus entities and electorates are not static. Parties must adapt or die.

Labour can only be so left wing now because the Lib Dems have collapsed.
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Arran90
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#63
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I think looking at Labour using vague one-dimensional terms of left and right is misleading and potentially meaningless. Instead the question should be what sort of people should Labour be targetting and what sort of policies interest them?

I see politics as no different to any other consumer product. Be customer focused and offer the right products then succeed. Be ideologically driven then only succeed through co-incidence and luck.
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Rakas21
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#64
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(Original post by Arran90)
Miliband was charmless and there was something unlikeable about him similar to Neil Kinnock. I suspect that had he stayed on after the 2015 general election then he would be invisible like IDS was as leader of the Conservatives.
People say Miliband was not likable but its worth remembering that Corbyn only has approval ratings in the mid 30's, not much different to Miliband.
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Trinculo
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#65
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#65
(Original post by DeBruyne18)
I don't disagree. I do wonder why people see to have such a problem with a traditionally left wing party being left wing.

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I think when most people in the country say they like a left-wing or socialist party; they don’t mean it in exact terms.
I think they mean they like a liberal party with high tax and a social policy they can identify with - Nordic kind of politics.

This isn’t a million miles away from late-era New Labour / Milliband Labour - but what we have now with Labour is nothing like that. Everyone knows Corbyn is a hardcore Marxist with some extreme out-the-window views and his inner circle are just as bad if not worse. There are CPGB members all of round his staff and Momentum.

In the short term, absolutely Labour have poll boosts, but they’re never going to erode the Tory vote - if anything they’ll add to it. This was the case in the last GE- May’s vote was about the same as Cameron’s but Labour managed to add a lot of new voters/disaffected Lib Dems

Let’s be clear - Corbyn can’t move to the centre - he doesn’t want to and he believes in Marxist state. And the Labour Party has been gutted if it’s moderates. Maybe not the MPs but the activists and workers are now overwhelmingly Momentum people.
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JMR2019.
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#66
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#66
(Original post by Trinculo)
I think when most people in the country say they like a left-wing or socialist party; they don’t mean it in exact terms.
I think they mean they like a liberal party with high tax and a social policy they can identify with - Nordic kind of politics.

This isn’t a million miles away from late-era New Labour / Milliband Labour - but what we have now with Labour is nothing like that. Everyone knows Corbyn is a hardcore Marxist with some extreme out-the-window views and his inner circle are just as bad if not worse. There are CPGB members all of round his staff and Momentum.

In the short term, absolutely Labour have poll boosts, but they’re never going to erode the Tory vote - if anything they’ll add to it. This was the case in the last GE- May’s vote was about the same as Cameron’s but Labour managed to add a lot of new voters/disaffected Lib Dems

Let’s be clear - Corbyn can’t move to the centre - he doesn’t want to and he believes in Marxist state. And the Labour Party has been gutted if it’s moderates. Maybe not the MPs but the activists and workers are now overwhelmingly Momentum people.
FGS, Corbyn is not a Marxist. Marxists believe in workers owning the means of production. Calling him a Marxist is definitely blowing it completely out of proportion.
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Trinculo
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#67
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#67
(Original post by JMR2017)
FGS, Corbyn is not a Marxist. Marxists believe in workers owning the means of production. Calling him a Marxist is definitely blowing it completely out of proportion.
That's pretty much what Corbyn has always believed and continues to believe. He's been asked on national TV in one-on-one interview with Marr - "Are you a Marxist?" and his answer was everything you would expect. He praises Marx a lot, says how much he's read, what an interesting question it is - and at no point says "no, I'm not a Marxist" which is what someone who is not a Marxist would say.

Corbyn surrounds himself with communists and Marxists. Back in the day, he was a blatant Marxist. He was a blatant Marxist up until he got unexpectedly elected leader of the Labour Party. John McDonnell openly says he's a Marxist. If your Chancellor is a Marxist -the PM isn't exactly going to be Milton Friedman, is he?
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Rakas21
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#68
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(Original post by Trinculo)
I think when most people in the country say they like a left-wing or socialist party; they don’t mean it in exact terms.
I think they mean they like a liberal party with high tax and a social policy they can identify with - Nordic kind of politics.

This isn’t a million miles away from late-era New Labour / Milliband Labour - but what we have now with Labour is nothing like that. Everyone knows Corbyn is a hardcore Marxist with some extreme out-the-window views and his inner circle are just as bad if not worse. There are CPGB members all of round his staff and Momentum.

In the short term, absolutely Labour have poll boosts, but they’re never going to erode the Tory vote - if anything they’ll add to it. This was the case in the last GE- May’s vote was about the same as Cameron’s but Labour managed to add a lot of new voters/disaffected Lib Dems

Let’s be clear - Corbyn can’t move to the centre - he doesn’t want to and he believes in Marxist state. And the Labour Party has been gutted if it’s moderates. Maybe not the MPs but the activists and workers are now overwhelmingly Momentum people.
The Tory vote actually increased quite a bit. The highest since 83 and the largest surge since the 50's for an incumbent.
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#69
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(Original post by DeBruyne18)
Hear me out!

Since the 2017 election, the two parties have been pretty much level pegging in the polls. The majority showing Labour with a small lead, but some recently showing the Tories either level or with a small lead themselves. Labour haven't pulled clear, which they may have been expecting to.

I've seen a lot of commentators in the press such as Osborne and even centre-left folk claiming that if Labour had a more centre-left leader, that they would be way out ahead. Then again, I don't know if a more centrist leader would be as popular with younger voters.

We seem to be in a similar position to 2005, an unpopular government with an equally unpopular opposition.

Thoughts?
This doesn’t compare much at all to 2005.

Of course. Jeremy Corbyn should’ve won against Theresa May, it was the worst campaign in history. Props to him for beating everyone’s expectations but that isn’t good enough, people know he and his cabinet aren’t fit for government.

Clearly appealing to the centre ground is more important than appealing to the youth who don’t even have much clue about politics but are just obsessed with this idea of tuition fees being a burden of debt when they have no idea of how it’s opened up the university system and the new repayment scheme is more progressive and fair than the last.

Labour under someone like Chukka Umunna would’ve won a landslide against Theresa May. Jeremy Corbyn would’ve been thrashed by David Cameron, sure Corbyn ran a decent campaign but the magnitude of ‘success’ was heavily dependent on Theresa May failing. I have no doubt the likes of Ed Miliband or Gordon Brown would’ve won 2017.
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username3672344
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#70
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#70
(Original post by Rakas21)
Becaus entities and electorates are not static. Parties must adapt or die.

Labour can only be so left wing now because the Lib Dems have collapsed.
Most people don't think in terms of left and right, they think in terms of issues.

Labour can win on a populist left wing agenda.
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Alpha boy
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#71
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It is not Corbyn that makes Labour unelectable. It is that they are Labour. Educated people who believe in British values would never vote for such reprobates.
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username3672344
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#72
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#72
(Original post by Trinculo)
That's pretty much what Corbyn has always believed and continues to believe. He's been asked on national TV in one-on-one interview with Marr - "Are you a Marxist?" and his answer was everything you would expect. He praises Marx a lot, says how much he's read, what an interesting question it is - and at no point says "no, I'm not a Marxist" which is what someone who is not a Marxist would say.

Corbyn surrounds himself with communists and Marxists. Back in the day, he was a blatant Marxist. He was a blatant Marxist up until he got unexpectedly elected leader of the Labour Party. John McDonnell openly says he's a Marxist. If your Chancellor is a Marxist -the PM isn't exactly going to be Milton Friedman, is he?
I'm pretty sure you don't know what the word Marxist means, given how loosely you throw it about.

Can you point out just one Marxist policy on Labour's manifesto?
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username3672344
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#73
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#73
(Original post by Zxyn)
This doesn’t compare much at all to 2005.

Of course. Jeremy Corbyn should’ve won against Theresa May, it was the worst campaign in history. Props to him for beating everyone’s expectations but that isn’t good enough, people know he and his cabinet aren’t fit for government.

Clearly appealing to the centre ground is more important than appealing to the youth who don’t even have much clue about politics but are just obsessed with this idea of tuition fees being a burden of debt when they have no idea of how it’s opened up the university system and the new repayment scheme is more progressive and fair than the last.

Labour under someone like Chukka Umunna would’ve won a landslide against Theresa May. Jeremy Corbyn would’ve been thrashed by David Cameron, sure Corbyn ran a decent campaign but the magnitude of ‘success’ was heavily dependent on Theresa May failing. I have no doubt the likes of Ed Miliband or Gordon Brown would’ve won 2017.
Miliband was very much a centrist yet he lost badly. The press made out like he was a far left communist anyway. Gordon Brown was the architect of the centre ground, and lost badly.

If Labour have a leader even marginally left of Tony Blair, the press are going to accuse them of being a Comminist anyway. They may as well choose someone actually left wing if that's the case.

I just love how triggered the Mail and Sun are and how Corbyn just doesn't give a sh*t about them.
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DBR247
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#74
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#74
(Original post by Midlander)
Wrong his positions have popular support. Stop copying and pasting from newspapers and look deeper.


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While I agree some of his policies have popular support, Labour should be polling far higher given the grave incompetencies of the current Conservative government. I'm just stating that I think they would be polling higher with Starmer. The centre ground is what is really missing in British politics at the moment, Corbyn's socialism is not the answer to uniting this country. It will alienate big business who we need to keep in this country at this time of economic uncertainty and the wealthy, the poor would be hit the hardest if they reduced investment. They need to be more responsible, wealth creation not wealth redistribution is key.
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Karl_Redak
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#75
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(Original post by Trinculo)
That's pretty much what Corbyn has always believed and continues to believe. He's been asked on national TV in one-on-one interview with Marr - "Are you a Marxist?" and his answer was everything you would expect. He praises Marx a lot, says how much he's read, what an interesting question it is - and at no point says "no, I'm not a Marxist" which is what someone who is not a Marxist would say.

Corbyn surrounds himself with communists and Marxists. Back in the day, he was a blatant Marxist. He was a blatant Marxist up until he got unexpectedly elected leader of the Labour Party. John McDonnell openly says he's a Marxist. If your Chancellor is a Marxist -the PM isn't exactly going to be Milton Friedman, is he?
Corbyn has been quoted as saying "Sadly I have not read as much Marx as I should have", I believe he stopped reading Marx after The Jewish Question.
Also McDonnall said he was a Marxist, only to deny it later on.

Didn't COrbyn (the wealthy middle class man) when asked if he was wealthy and middle class, fail to answer the question correctly ("Yes, of course I am") instead saying something like "Erm, ah, well".
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Arran90
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#76
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(Original post by Zxyn)
Labour under someone like Chukka Umunna would’ve won a landslide against Theresa May. Jeremy Corbyn would’ve been thrashed by David Cameron, sure Corbyn ran a decent campaign but the magnitude of ‘success’ was heavily dependent on Theresa May failing. I have no doubt the likes of Ed Miliband or Gordon Brown would’ve won 2017.
Are you having a laugh?

Do you honestly think that a black Londoner who is part of the Metropolitan elite and a staunch Remain campaigner who represents the most pro-EU constituency in the entire UK will go down well with the sort of folk from real England who Labour needs the votes of to win? He is also openly Zionist so don't expect Muslims to think of him as a hero in the same way as Jeremy Corbyn. Every Muslim I know who has heard of Chukka Umunna hates him.

Jeremy Corbyn was elected leader of Labour as an ideological opponent to David Cameron and his sidekick George Osborne, not Theresa May. It's a long shot but it's possible that Labour could have won in 2017 if the electorate was faced with a hard choice between Corbyn or three more years of swingeing austerity and cuts from Cameron and Osborne for ideological reasons. Perhaps Labour lost because, like in 1992, there had been a change of leader of the Conservatives and a potentially new direction for the party following the EU referendum.

See post #73 for Ed Miliband and Gordon Brown.
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username3672344
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#77
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(Original post by Karl_Redak)
Corbyn has been quoted as saying "Sadly I have not read as much Marx as I should have", I believe he stopped reading Marx after The Jewish Question.
Also McDonnall said he was a Marxist, only to deny it later on.

Didn't COrbyn (the wealthy middle class man) when asked if he was wealthy and middle class, fail to answer the question correctly ("Yes, of course I am") instead saying something like "Erm, ah, well".
Why does being wealthy mean you can't be left wing? Especially when his money has come through being an MP.

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Arran90
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Where should Labour position itself on the Israel Palestine conflict?
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username3672344
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#79
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#79
(Original post by Arran90)
Where should Labour position itself on the Israel Palestine conflict?
Two state Solution. Oppose settlements and acts of terror.
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Arran90
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#80
(Original post by DeBruyne18)
Two state Solution. Oppose settlements and acts of terror.
What about boycotting Israeli goods and companies?
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