Would a more centrist Labour be polling higher now? Watch

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Rakas21
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#141
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#141
(Original post by TheCasual MK2)
I really don't get what centrist disagree on with Corbyn?

Proper living wage? Getting rid of the public sector wage cap? investment in public services and infrastructure? Better working rights? Corporation Tax at New Labour levels?
Maintaining the deficit, pacifism, Republicanism, believing that parts of the UK and overseas territories should be torn apart. Higher income taxes for successful people, more taxation for business.
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Midlander
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#142
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#142
(Original post by Rakas21)
Maintaining the deficit, pacifism, Republicanism, believing that parts of the UK and overseas territories should be torn apart. Higher income taxes for successful people, more taxation for business.
1. Tories have abandoned that after it persisted despite cuts to everything for 7 years.

2. False

3. Not party policy or a manifesto commitment

4. Allowing self determination is not wishing things to be 'torn apart'

5. Simply getting them to pay would be a start as we all know that there is rampant exploitation of loopholes even with our 'business friendly' rates

Could we add:

1. Paying public sector workers properly

2. Funding education properly

3. Investing in local infrastructure

4. Scrapping the vanity project that is HS2

5. Establishing a living wage to eliminate in work benefits

6. Not penalising people for pursuing higher education

Things which, when put to polling, have popular support. That is why Corbyn closed a 20+ point gap when he was given a national platform free of being called a Trot.


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TheCasual MK2
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Maintaining the deficit, pacifism, Republicanism, believing that parts of the UK and overseas territories should be torn apart. Higher income taxes for successful people, more taxation for business.
Austerity was supposed to wife our full debt out by 2015 and now we're nearly in 2018 and we've not doubled our debt.

When has the UK been involved in a war that had any sort of successful outcome? Ireland didn't progress until people sat round a table, Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria are basket cases.

Where has Corbyn said we should tear up the UK or requinish any territories? The last PM to give up a overseas territory was one Tony Blair with Hong Kong.

Corbyn wants slightly lower New Labour Corporation Tax levels, aren't New Labour centrist? Being rich doesn't mean your successful. 80% of rich people are born rich.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by TheCasual MK2)
Austerity was supposed to wife our full debt out by 2015 and now we're nearly in 2018 and we've not doubled our debt.

When has the UK been involved in a war that had any sort of successful outcome? Ireland didn't progress until people sat round a table, Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria are basket cases.

Where has Corbyn said we should tear up the UK or requinish any territories? The last PM to give up a overseas territory was one Tony Blair with Hong Kong.

Corbyn wants slightly lower New Labour Corporation Tax levels, aren't New Labour centrist? Being rich doesn't mean your successful. 80% of rich people are born rich.
Your confusing debt and deficit. The fiscal deficit was supposed to be gone by 2015 which would have then seen debt slowly fall, debt was always going to rise while we still had a deficit though.

The fiscal deficit has fallen from 10.4% to 2.6% of GDP.
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username3672344
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#145
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Your confusing debt and deficit. The fiscal deficit was supposed to be gone by 2015 which would have then seen debt slowly fall, debt was always going to rise while we still had a deficit though.

The fiscal deficit has fallen from 10.4% to 2.6% of GDP.
They promised to wipe out the deficit by 2015 yet we won't be running a surplus before 2021. In fact the rate at which the tories have cut the deficit is no quicker than Labour were proposing to in 2010.

Our debt meanwhile has soared under the Tories. Yet the press barely, if ever, call them out on it.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by DeBruyne18)
They promised to wipe out the deficit by 2015 yet we won't be running a surplus before 2021. In fact the rate at which the tories have cut the deficit is no quicker than Labour were proposing to in 2010.

Our debt meanwhile has soared under the Tories. Yet the press barely, if ever, call them out on it.
Indeed. They made errors in 2010-2011 that were only corrected in the 2012 budget onward. They also slowed austerity as we got closer to the election in 2015 and then May has been softer still.

Since the Tories have indeed ended up backing the Darling plan's pace, by definition Labour would have increased the debt by more or less the same amount. Its not really news.
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paul514
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#147
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(Original post by DeBruyne18)
They promised to wipe out the deficit by 2015 yet we won't be running a surplus before 2021. In fact the rate at which the tories have cut the deficit is no quicker than Labour were proposing to in 2010.

Our debt meanwhile has soared under the Tories. Yet the press barely, if ever, call them out on it.
So the argument is they should have made really big cuts which people would moan about or less cut/freezing budgets over time which people moan about similar to labours previous proposals which labour voters still moan about....

Ok.

For the record I think you can cut or grow your way out of deficit but the above which I wrote still stands true.
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username3672344
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#148
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Indeed. They made errors in 2010-2011 that were only corrected in the 2012 budget onward. They also slowed austerity as we got closer to the election in 2015 and then May has been softer still.

Since the Tories have indeed ended up backing the Darling plan's pace, by definition Labour would have increased the debt by more or less the same amount. Its not really news.
It is news in the sense that they've failed on the economy yet the press never seems to hold them to account. They award the Tories a tag of economic competence, which is rather undeserved once their economic record is assessed.

It's one of the reasons I want a Labour government. Though I disagree with Corbyn on a number of issues, there is little to suggest he'd have the economy performing any worse than the Tories have it.
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username3672344
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(Original post by paul514)
So the argument is they should have made really big cuts which people would moan about or less cut/freezing budgets over time which people moan about similar to labours previous proposals which labour voters still moan about....

Ok.

For the record I think you can cut or grow your way out of deficit but the above which I wrote still stands true.
Or we could have taken a lead out of Portugal's book and grown our way out of the deficit through investing, rather than cutting.

Not to mention the societal issues such cuts have caused. Take the legal sector for example which has faced cuts of 40% on things like legal aid.
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paul514
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(Original post by DeBruyne18)
Or we could have taken a lead out of Portugal's book and grown our way out of the deficit through investing, rather than cutting.

Not to mention the societal issues such cuts have caused. Take the legal sector for example which has faced cuts of 40% on things like legal aid.
Sorry but that wasn’t on offer in 2010
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username3672344
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(Original post by paul514)
Sorry but that wasn’t on offer in 2010
No, but cuts at a slower pace would have prevented such sluggish growth.
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paul514
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(Original post by DeBruyne18)
No, but cuts at a slower pace would have prevented such sluggish growth.
Cuts at any slower pace than what they have been wouldn’t be cuts. Most cuts have been real terms cuts aka frozen budgets
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username3672344
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#153
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(Original post by paul514)
Cuts at any slower pace than what they have been wouldn’t be cuts. Most cuts have been real terms cuts aka frozen budgets
Not to things like welfare, councils budgets and legal aid.
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paul514
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(Original post by DeBruyne18)
INot to things like welfare, councils budgets and legal aid.
Welfare hasn’t been cut it’s been frozen, council budgets haven’t been cut they have had tax powers given to them and central government funding taken away.

Legal aid I’ll give you.

But you seem to forget I’m not here to defend the government just pointing out the truth.
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Midlander
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#155
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(Original post by paul514)
Welfare hasn’t been cut it’s been frozen, council budgets haven’t been cut they have had tax powers given to them and central government funding taken away.

Legal aid I’ll give you.

But you seem to forget I’m not here to defend the government just pointing out the truth.
An absolute freeze is a real terms cut.


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paul514
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(Original post by Midlander)
An absolute freeze is a real terms cut.


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Which I already said
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username3672344
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#157
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(Original post by paul514)
Welfare hasn’t been cut it’s been frozen, council budgets haven’t been cut they have had tax powers given to them and central government funding taken away.

Legal aid I’ll give you.

But you seem to forget I’m not here to defend the government just pointing out the truth.
Housing benefit was cut - spare room subsidy
Things like EMA were cut.

Council budgets was an effective cut, given that poorer councils clearly aren't able to raise the same amount of tax as weather councils. No point giving a council in a poor area higher powers to tax.
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paul514
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(Original post by DeBruyne18)
Housing benefit was cut - spare room subsidy
Things like EMA were cut.

Council budgets was an effective cut, given that poorer councils clearly aren't able to raise the same amount of tax as weather councils. No point giving a council in a poor area higher powers to tax.
Bu the council does have the right to raise its tax to a threshold that receives an income it deems appropriate to run its business. Now that can clearly be advantageous to some councils more than others due to its local business’ however equally it can be argued that because they have that power it can attract business to one area rather than another.

EMA was always a joke 30 quid a week does not convince people to go to collage and regardless the law changed on educating people up to 18 unless they had a job, apprenticeship, etc.

The bedroom tax is a crap way of trying to move people out of homes that can be better utilised by larger family units.

I would prefer they simply built more homes and regardless it’s a crap system as the smaller places aren’t available in the numbers needed.

Again I’m not here to defend just to point out the truth.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by DeBruyne18)
It is news in the sense that they've failed on the economy yet the press never seems to hold them to account. They award the Tories a tag of economic competence, which is rather undeserved once their economic record is assessed.

It's one of the reasons I want a Labour government. Though I disagree with Corbyn on a number of issues, there is little to suggest he'd have the economy performing any worse than the Tories have it.
They've missed the target but failed is too strong. They made progress and did okay on growth and job creation.
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username3672344
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(Original post by Rakas21)
They've missed the target but failed is too strong. They made progress and did okay on growth and job creation.
The best word to describe their progress is sluggish.

Put it this way, if Gordon Brown won in 2010, we wouldn't be in a worse position than we are now.

Portugal have successfully spent their way out of a recession. Why can't we do the same?
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