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Republicans attempting to shut down Trump-Russia investigations

The senior Democrat in a congressional Trump-Russia investigation has said he fears Republicans are manoeuvring to kill off inquiries into Moscow’s interference in the 2016 US presidential election.

“I’m increasingly worried Republicans will shut down the House intelligence committee investigation at the end of the month,” said Adam Schiff, who is the leading Democrat on the House intelligence committee.

Schiff suggested Republicans also had their sights on the FBI’s Trump-Russia investigation overseen by special counsel Robert Mueller. The president’s personal lawyers are reportedly set to meet Mueller and his team within days to ask about the next steps in his investigation.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/16/republicans-trying-to-kill-off-trump-russia-investigation-says-adam-schiff

If Trump and his team are innocent in this, why do they keep behaving so guilty? Why do they keep interfering in the investigations? Why can't they keep their stories straight? Earlier this year Trump and his spokespeople insisted that nobody in Trump's team had any relationship to Russia. We now know this to be categorically false. To bring people up to speed, here's a brief summary of what we know about just some of the main players:

Michael Flynn
Former Trump national security adviser with a history of pro-Russian views. Sat next to Putin at an RT anniversary dinner, and has received thousands of dollars from Russian companies - which he routinely failed to declare. When Obama withdrew US ambassadors from Russia in the wake of the Russian email hacking scandal, Flynn immediately contacted the senior Russian ambassador, Sergey Kislyak, and told him not to worry about the sanctions, because they would be torn up once Trump was inaugurated. In doing so, he single-handedly undermined the US's position, making it clear that, under Trump, the hacking of political opponents' emails would be perfectly acceptable. He then lied about this to the FBI - a federal offence.

Now, where this gets really interesting is that Trump himself admitted to firing FBI director James Comey over his investigation into Flynn. More recently, he confessed to firing Flynn for lying to the FBI. In other words, he knew Flynn had committed a crime, and then attempted to obstruct justice by firing the man investigating him.

Paul Manafort
Trump's campaign manager. Before becoming involved in the Trump campaign, Manafort spent several years in Ukraine on the payroll of a Russian Oligarch rehabilitating the image of Russian-Ukrainian thug and Kremlin puppet Victor Yanukovich, ultimately getting him elected. Manafort was paid millions of dollars for his efforts - all undeclared, of course.

Michael Cohen
Trump's personal lawyer. Had an email exchange with Felix Sater, the son of a Russian mafia boss and one of Trump's former business associates, in which Sater claimed that he could use his ties to Putin to 'engineer' a Trump victory, even offering Trump lucrative business opportunities in Moscow as a sweetener. Cohen was receptive to this offer. When nothing came of it, Cohen contacted the Kremlin directly - pleading with Putin's press secretary to update him on the situation.

Donald Trump Jr.
Arranged a covert meeting in Trump Tower with a Kremlin-linked lawyer and a Russian intelligence chief under the pretence of receiving compromising information on Clinton - an idea that Jr. said he 'loved'.

And this is without getting into the contents of the increasingly credible Steele dossier, or Trump's own transactions with Russian oligarchs and criminals, or his suspicious dealings with Deutsche Bank - a bank known to act as a laundromat for dirty Russian money. That collusion occurred between the Trump team and Russia is virtually a fact at this point, and that's just from what we, the public, know. This is almost certainly the biggest political scandal in American history, and the GOP are actively attempting to obstruct any and all investigations into it.
(edited 6 years ago)

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Can't wait till Trump is behind bars. There's great irony in this, when you remember what him and his supporters were saying about Hillary and her emails.
It's funny how the Democrats are still playing this Trump-Russia card.
Original post by EagleKingdom
It's funny how the Democrats still care about treason by a sitting president who has demonstrated clear allegiance to another country.


FTFY
Explain to me how President Trump has ''demonstrated'' allegiance to another country.
Original post by Captain Haddock
X


Excellent post. Rumour has it that Trump is going to seek to fire Mueller around Christmas. There are some legal issues with that, he may not be able to fire Mueller directly which means if the acting Attorney-General (for the purposes of the recusal) Rod Rosenstein refuses, Trump will have to fire him, which will result in Rachel Brady moving up into Rosenstein's position.

If Brady refuses to fire Mueller (and there is a distinct possibility Rosenstein and Brady will both do so) then Trump will have to fire her, and keep firing people until he gets to someone willing to fire Mueller (maybe until he's reached all the way down to the janitor at the Department of Justice).

That's exactly what Nixon did with the 'Saturday Night Massacre' that precipitated the end of his presidency. In fact, I hope Trump tries it. It will simply hasten his downfall.

Seth Abramson (by far the best commentator on the Trump treason case) has made a list of all the Trump-Russia connections.


#1: In March of 2016, Papadopoulos reveals to Trump—face-to-face—he's a Kremlin intermediary sent to establish a Trump-Putin backchannel (he says Putin is favorably disposed to Trump's candidacy). Trump then and there orders Gordon to coordinate a pro-Kremlin GOP platform change.

#2: In June 2016, Don Jr. knowingly attends a meeting with—and set up by—Kremlin agents. He asks the Kremlin for what he has reason to believe is illegally acquired Clinton material. Afterwards, he (allegedly) tells no one. When caught, he lies about every aspect of the meeting.

#3: In April, July and September of 2016 Sessions meets Russian Ambassador Kislyak in settings in which Russian sanctions are discussed. He holds the latter two meetings *after* it's known Russia is cyber-attacking America. He lies about these contacts under oath before Congress.

#4: Kislyak egregiously violates longstanding diplomatic protocol to attend—as a guest of the Trump campaign—a major Trump foreign policy speech. Having been invited to the speech as a VIP, Kislyak sits in the front row as Trump promises Putin's Russia "a good deal" on sanctions.

#5: Flynn—aided and abetted by Kushner and the full Presidential Transition Team—illegally conducts sanctions and resolution negotiations with Russia during the 2016 transition. When asked about it by the FBI, he lies. When the lies are published, no one on the PTT corrects them.

#6: Carter Page travels to Moscow under the guise of an academic conference—in fact, he meets with top Kremlin officials and top Rosneft executives, speaking with both about Russian sanctions just as the Steele Dossier alleges. When questioned about his activities, he lies on TV.

#7: Trump campaign manager Manafort and Sessions aide Gordon aggressively push to change the GOP platform to benefit Putin under direct orders from Trump. When asked about Trump's involvement, they lie to the media; when asked about their own involvement, they lie to the media.

#8: Shortly after the inauguration, it's revealed that Trump has been holding onto a secret plan to unilaterally drop all sanctions against Russia for months—a plan he's never before revealed, which would *reward* Russia for cyber-attacking America during a presidential election.

#9: When Trump learns the FBI Director plans to indict his ex-National Security Advisor, he fires him—first lying about his reason for doing so, then eventually admitting he did it due to "the Russia thing." Later—in an Oval Office conversation with Russians—he repeats the claim.

#10: In an Oval Office meeting into which no U.S. media are allowed (foreshadowing a meeting with Putin in which no U.S. translators would be allowed), Trump deliberately leaks classified Israeli intelligence to the Russians, who are allies of Israel's (and America's) enemy—Iran.

#11: In late 2016, Kushner and Flynn smuggle Kislyak into Trump Tower to secretly discuss the creation of a clandestine—Kremlin-controlled—Trump-Putin backchannel only a few principals would know about. The men don't disclose the meeting or plan, which would constitute espionage.

#12: In May 2016, Trump NatSec advisor Papadopoulos makes secret trips to Athens to make contact with Kremlin allies. During the second trip, Putin's also there—to discuss sanctions. It's his only trip to an EU nation during the campaign. Papadopoulos meets the same men as Putin.

#13: In 2013, Trump and Putin's developer sign a letter-of-intent to build Trump Tower Moscow—a deal requiring Putin's blessing that only goes forward when Putin dispatches to Trump his permits man and banker. Trump and principals lie about the deal—and events at the Ritz Moscow.

#14: Just before Trump's inauguration, Trump's lawyer Cohen and ex-Russian mobster Sater secretly meet with a pro-Russia Ukrainian politician to help ferry a secret Kremlin-backed "peace deal" to Flynn, Trump's National Security Advisor. All involved then lie about their actions.

#15: After it's publicly revealed Russia is waging cyberwar on America, Trump publicly and in all seriousness invites the Kremlin to continue cyber-attacking America if doing so will result in the theft and release of his opponent's private emails. He never retracts the request.

#16: Trump advisors Bannon, Prince, Flynn, Don Jr., Giuliani and Pirro are involved—to varying degrees—in leaking, sourcing, disseminating, and legitimizing a false "True Pundit" story that seeks to use fraud to blackmail the FBI into indicting Clinton. Russian bots pump it also.

#17: Trump's top advisors—including Manafort, Sessions, Flynn, Clovis, Page, Papadopoulos, Cohen, Sater, Don Jr, Kushner, Prince, Dearborn, Gordon, Gates, Stone and others—lie about or fail to disclose Russia contacts or key conversations on Russian efforts to collude with Trump.

#18: For many months after Trump begins his run, he is secretly working under a letter-of-intent with Russian developers to build Trump Tower Moscow. The deal—brokered by Cohen and Sater—allegedly falls apart only when Putin's top aide won't return an email from Trump's attorney.

#19: In 2008, Don Jr. privately tells investors that "a disproportionate percentage" of the Trump Organization's money comes from Russia—a fact later confirmed by Eric Trump. Trump Sr. then becomes the first presidential candidate in decades to refuse to release his tax returns.

#20: Though he's fully briefed on Russia's cyberwar against America in August 2016, Trump publicly denies it—calling the U.S. intel community Nazis—while accepting Putin's denials he's done anything wrong and proposing the U.S. create a cybersecurity task force with the Kremlin.

BONUS: Though he knows by August 2016 that Russia is committing crimes against America, Trump still lets his top NatSec advisor, Sessions, negotiate sanctions with Kislyak—presumably Trump's plan for a unilateral dropping of sanctions. This is Aiding and Abetting Computer Crimes.

BONUS: During the transition, Trump's son-in-law Kushner secretly meets with Putin's banker—after which discussion the two men disagree wildly as to what they discussed, suggesting that whatever the topic was, it was clandestine. Kushner won't reveal the meeting for many months.

BONUS: Advisors to the Trump campaign, including Trump Jr. and Stone, have contacts with WikiLeaks and/or Russian hackers—the timeline of which conversations dovetails perfectly with consequential changes in behavior by one or both of the parties (including Trump's stump speech).

BONUS: When Acting AG Yates warns Trump that Flynn—his National Security Advisor—has been compromised by Russia, Trump fires her and keeps Flynn on board for 18 days. Either he lies to Pence about what he knows on this or both Trump and Pence lie to America about their knowledge.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by EagleKingdom
Explain to me how President Trump has ''demonstrated'' allegiance to another country.


His refusal to put into effect the sanctions Congress passed against Russia to punish them. In fact, Trump wanted to unilaterally drop the sanctions against Russia, even in the face of the known Russian information and cyber operations against the US during the 2016 election. We now know that Trump dropping the sanctions was part of a deal he struck with Putin in which he would;

(1) Change the Republican Party Ukraine platform to exclude weapon deliveries to anti-Russian forces
(2) Unilaterally drop the sanctions against Russia if he won the election
(3) Withdraw support for anti-government forces in Syria

In exchange, Russia agreed to;

(1) Utilise its intelligence capabilities to support Trump and attack his opponent
(2) Allow him to build Trump Tower Moscow
(3) Allow him a 0.5% brokerage fee on the Rosneft privatisation, which would net him around $250 million

Trump never says anything bad about Putin, ever. Almost everyone else he will attack, denigrate, abuse and insult. But never Putin, ever. He knows who his master is. He has repeatedly praised and lovingly spoken of Putin. We now know exactly how deep were Trump and his campaign's connections to Russia. Over and over again, he and his campaign have had dealing with Russia, over and over again they have lied and covered this up.

Just be honest, you are so emotionally invested in supporting the traitor that you will never accept that you supported a Russian shill. The evidence of high-level contacts for the purposes of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia is now undeniable. Trump's actions in office, constantly doing Russia's bidding and doing everything he can to undermine US actions against Russia, speak for themselves. He would have absolutely no interest in doing that if he wasn't in hock to them, in fact given the suspicions it would absolutely be in his political interest to get tough on Russia. Instead, he does their bidding over and over again even when it is both bad policy and politically poisonous for him.

P.S. Check out the list above. Of course you will deny it, your emotional investment in this doesn't allow you to see the truth. For you, your allegiance to Trump verges on a religion
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by AlexanderHam
His refusal to put into effect the sanctions Congress passed against Russia to punish them. In fact, Trump wanted to unilaterally drop the sanctions against Russia, even in the face of the known Russian information and cyber operations against the US during the 2016 election. We now know that Trump dropping the sanctions was part of a deal he struck with Putin in which he would;

(1) Change the Republican Party Ukraine platform to exclude weapon deliveries to anti-Russian forces
(2) Unilaterally drop the sanctions against Russia if he won the election
(3) Withdraw support for anti-government forces in Syria

In exchange, Russia agreed to;

(1) Utilise its intelligence capabilities to support Trump and attack his opponent
(2) Allow him to build Trump Tower Moscow
(3) Allow him a 0.5% brokerage fee on the Rosneft privatisation, which would net him around $250 million

Trump never says anything bad about Putin, ever. Almost everyone else he will attack, denigrate, abuse and insult. But never Putin, ever. He knows who his master is. He has repeatedly praised and lovingly spoken of Putin. We now know exactly how deep were Trump and his campaign's connections to Russia. Over and over again, he and his campaign have had dealing with Russia, over and over again they have lied and covered this up.

Just be honest, you are so emotionally invested in supporting the traitor that you will never accept that you supported a Russian shill. The evidence of high-level contacts for the purposes of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia is now undeniable. Trump's actions in office, constantly doing Russia's bidding and doing everything he can to undermine US actions against Russia, speak for themselves. He would have absolutely no interest in doing that if he wasn't in hock to them, in fact given the suspicions it would absolutely be in his political interest to get tough on Russia. Instead, he does their bidding over and over again even when it is both bad policy and politically poisonous for him.

P.S. Check out the list above. Of course you will deny it, your emotional investment in this doesn't allow you to see the truth. For you, your allegiance to Trump verges on a religion



1. False. The United States placed sanctions on Russia along with North Korea and Iran a few months ago. You stating that Trump blocked Congress from doing that is untrue. He was unhappy with it but signed it anyway.
You can't expect Trump to be happy with it since he wants to improve relations with Russia, which needs to happen.

There is no proof to show that Russia interfered with the US. Technology is so advanced that specialists can use IP addresses from different countries and can even leave digital fingerprints to pin point where the attack came from, to accuse another person or country. If you have actual evidence from a valid source that states that Russia was behind the so called ''interference'' in the US election then show me.

[video="youtube;cruh2p_Wh_4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cruh2p_Wh_4[/video]


2. Where is the proof to back up your claim of the whole ''Trump-Putin deal''?

3. Why would Trump criticise Putin when Putin has never criticised Trump? The only reason Trump goes to insult others is because they always criticise him and spread false information on him. Take CNN as a very good example.

You are so liberal its unreal. Do you actually think that the US and Russia having good relations is a bad thing?
Original post by AlexanderHam
During the transition, Trump's son-in-law Kushner secretly meets with Putin's banker—after which discussion the two men disagree wildly as to what they discussed, suggesting that whatever the topic was, it was clandestine. Kushner won't reveal the meeting for many months.



Not just any banker either, but Sergei Gorkov, head of the VEB - the national investment bank described by the CIA as 'the Kremlin's cookie jar', and believed to act as a front for Russian intelligence operations. One of the spies responsible compromising Carter Page, and later imprisoned as an unregistered agent, had been working undercover at a VEB branch in Manhatten.

I tried to avoid mentioning anything found in the Steele dossier because unfortunately many people who aren't even Trump supporters seem to assume that it's bunk, despite Steele's impeccable reputation and the continued corroboration of its claims. For example, the dossier alleges that Rosneft chairman Igor Sechin offered Carter Page the brokerage of up to a 19% stake in Rosneft. In December 2016, sure enough 19.5% of Rosneft was privatised - a bizarrely accurate prediction of a hugely significant and unforeseeable deal. In one of Steele's memo's to the FBI, it is stated that in return for compromising information on Clinton, Trump would play down Russia's involvement in Ukraine and distract from the invasion by pressuring Eastern European countries on their failure to meet defence spending commitments. This would become a pet issue for Trump, despite the 'commitments' being merely guidelines and entirely voluntary. Trump even stated that he would 'look into' recognising Crimea as Russian.
Original post by EagleKingdom
Do you actually think that the US and Russia having good relations is a bad thing?


:lol: Such a cuckservative comment.

Russia repeatedly undermines, interferes in and attacks the West, and you want to bend over for more.

When did the right become so pathetically weak and unpatriotic? In fairness, it's not the entire right that's like that. Just Trumpians.

The rest of your laughable comment isn't even worth replying to, you are incapable of independent and objective thought. Just brainwashed by Breitbart and Fox News. In any case, your opinion is worthless to me so I'm not going to spend time trying to convince you that 1 + 1 = 2
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by AlexanderHam
:lol: Such a cuckservative comment.

Russia repeatedly undermines, interferes in and attacks the West, and you want to bend over for more.

When did the right become so pathetically weak and unpatriotic? In fairness, it's not the entire right that's like that. Just Trumpians.

The rest of your laughable comment isn't even worth replying to, you are incapable of independent and objective thought. Just brainwashed by Breitbart and Fox News. In any case, your opinion is worthless to me so I'm not going to spend time trying to convince you that 1 + 1 = 2





You have to understand that the United States and Russia have differences on how they live their lives and the way both countries represent their foreign policy. Let's look at the Syrian Civil War as an example. Russia supported the Assad regime and wanted to keep him in power whereas the United States and most of the Western countries supported anti-government forces and didn't want Assad in power. You cannot expect Russia to remain silent when the West constantly places economic sanctions on Russia and even they attack Russia in what they do. I'm not sympathizing for Russia but you have to understand both sides and not be such a liberal cuck.

You call the right weak and patriotic? LOOOL. How is supporting good diplomatic relations between the United States and Russia all of a sudden becoming a show of weakness and unpatriotic? You seriously are dumb if you think the West and Russia should always be head-to-head with each other.

It's funny how you laugh at my response. Probably because you were schooled and don't have a good counter argument for it. I don't listen to Breitbart or Fox News, I form my own opinions on when I read up on the news. I want to hear where you get your information from, probably a liberal network like CNN.
Reply 11
This really has become a witch hunt. The idea that the Russians somehow actually had a material effect on the election is ludicrous. The fact he tapped into a layer of deep resentment in American society and that Clinton was one of the most hated candidates in history is much more plausible.
Original post by EagleKingdom



You have to understand that the United States and Russia have differences on how they live their lives and the way both countries represent their foreign policy. Let's look at the Syrian Civil War as an example. Russia supported the Assad regime and wanted to keep him in power whereas the United States and most of the Western countries supported anti-government forces and didn't want Assad in power.


And that is why the US should restrain themselves from having good relations with Russia. Considering that Russia supported the rebels in the Ukranian war and illegally seized territory in Crimea and they supported Assad in the Syrian war, there isn't much of a reason for the US to improve relations anytime soon.
Original post by Napp
This really has become a witch hunt. The idea that the Russians somehow actually had a material effect on the election is ludicrous. The fact he tapped into a layer of deep resentment in American society and that Clinton was one of the most hated candidates in history is much more plausible.


How is it ludicrous? Trump's victory was based on razor-thin margins in only a handful of swing states. Any number of variables could have swung the result. The hacking of Clinton's emails by the Russians was a significant blow to her campaign, and we know that Russia ran a covert social-media campaign in Trump's favour that reached millions of Americans. We will never know if the result would have been different without Russian interference, but it's hardly 'ludicrous' to consider it.

Whatever the case may be, you have missed the point here in a major way. Counterfactuals and hypotheticals are of little interest. Whether or not there was any material effect is not as important as the fact they tried to have an effect, and they did so with the full support and knowledge of the Trump team, striking deals for favourable treatment in return for their efforts. Trump's campaign and transition teams were active players in a conspiracy aimed at influencing the American democratic process in favour of a rival power.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by EagleKingdom



You have to understand that the United States and Russia have differences on how they live their lives and the way both countries represent their foreign policy. Let's look at the Syrian Civil War as an example. Russia supported the Assad regime and wanted to keep him in power whereas the United States and most of the Western countries supported anti-government forces and didn't want Assad in power. You cannot expect Russia to remain silent when the West constantly places economic sanctions on Russia and even they attack Russia in what they do. I'm not sympathizing for Russia but you have to understand both sides and not be such a liberal cuck.

You call the right weak and patriotic? LOOOL. How is supporting good diplomatic relations between the United States and Russia all of a sudden becoming a show of weakness and unpatriotic? You seriously are dumb if you think the West and Russia should always be head-to-head with each other.

It's funny how you laugh at my response. Probably because you were schooled and don't have a good counter argument for it. I don't listen to Breitbart or Fox News, I form my own opinions on when I read up on the news. I want to hear where you get your information from, probably a liberal network like CNN.


Your opinions are largely informed by memes and animated gifs. Don't pretend otherwise.
Reply 15
Original post by Captain Haddock
How is it ludicrous? Trump's victory was based on razor-thin margins in only a handful of swing states. Any number of variables could have swung the result. The hacking of Clinton's emails by the Russians was a significant blow to her campaign, and we know that Russia ran a covert social-media campaign in Trump's favour that reached millions of Americans. We will never know if the result would have been different without Russian interference, but it's hardly 'ludicrous' to consider it.

Whatever the case may be, you have missed the point here in a major way. Counterfactuals and hypotheticals are of little interest. Whether or not there was any material effect is not as important as the fact they tried to have an effect, and they did so with the full support and knowledge of the Trump team, striking deals for favourable treatment in return for their efforts. Trump's campaign and transition teams were active players in a conspiracy aimed at influencing the American democratic process in favour of a rival power.


I might have overstated my case with the word ludicrous but I completely stand by the premise.
Aside from blaming the Russians for something as petty as email leaks - which lets be fair only showed a more honest picture of the woman anyway. It is a far more damning indictment of American democracy if such small things can swing an election.

You might accuse me of rank whataboutery here but the simple fact of the matter is this has been a consistent tactic in the American playbook of 'democracy promotion' for quite a while now. Spreading information and misinformation through civilian channels has been ongoing in countries from Asia to the Middle East to Eastern Europe and Russia for many years now. It is somewhat galling that people should only get upset about it when it is done to the US, the level of hypocrisy here is mind bending.
Original post by Napp
I might have overstated my case with the word ludicrous but I completely stand by the premise.
Aside from blaming the Russians for something as petty as email leaks - which lets be fair only showed a more honest picture of the woman anyway. It is a far more damning indictment of American democracy if such small things can swing an election.

You might accuse me of rank whataboutery here but the simple fact of the matter is this has been a consistent tactic in the American playbook of 'democracy promotion' for quite a while now. Spreading information and misinformation through civilian channels has been ongoing in countries from Asia to the Middle East to Eastern Europe and Russia for many years now. It is somewhat galling that people should only get upset about it when it is done to the US, the level of hypocrisy here is mind bending.


Even if we accept Russian interference or, for that matter, any interference by any other power, as a fact of life, that picture changed entirely when Trump's team started actively colluding with that power, promising favourable treatment in exchange for assistance in winning an election.
Reply 17
Original post by Captain Haddock
Even if we accept Russian interference or, for that matter, any interference by any other power, as a fact of life, that picture changed entirely when Trump's team started actively colluding with that power, promising favourable treatment in exchange for assistance in winning an election.


I think the fact that many of Trumps original appointments were already sympathetic to Russian concerns and would have acted on them accordingly goes some way to nullifying that. - I should point out i am vehemently anti-trump and would not want to come across as an apologist for him.
Also you seem to imply that restoring somewhat warmer relations with Russia would be a bad thing? I struggle to see how this could in any way what so ever be a fact?

At any rate I maintain my stance on the email issue, in that it is more a nonissue than anything else.
I believe the sentiments expressed by Professor Sakwa on the matter of Russian meddling in elections is nicely epitomised in this excerpt;
"The vast networks of sponsored think tanks also swung into action, producing a stream of reports exposing Russia’s nefarious activities and its ‘Trojan horses’. The report Winning the Information War, produced by the Centre for European Policy Analysis (CEPA) in Washington, DC, warned that [t] he Russian government uses disinformation, incitement to violence and hate speech to destroy trust, sap morale, degrade the information space, erode public discourse and increase partisanship’. 31 In this model, the West is presented as supine and open, while the monstrous Russian bear has almost supernatural powers to shape opinions, win elections and in general destabilise a vulnerable and innocent West."
Hypocrisy and the crys of foul play don't do wonders for the Wests credibility here i'm afraid.
Reply 18
How long should the investigation go on for? Do consider it’s almost impossible to prove a negative like this.
Original post by Napp
I think the fact that many of Trumps original appointments were already sympathetic to Russian concerns and would have acted on them accordingly goes some way to nullifying that. - I should point out i am vehemently anti-trump and would not want to come across as an apologist for him.


I don't think that's a coincidence. As per my OP, those involved were not just people with sympathetic attitudes, but people with strong ties to Russian intelligence, oligarchs and politicians. You need to understand that Russian intelligence, oligarchy, mafia, government, and, of course, Putin himself, are, for all intents and purposes, the same thing. This is how Russia operates. They groom and cultivate foreign politicians and businessmen who could potentially work in their favour, and have done since Soviet days. They look specifically for people who have the potential to come to power, who are arrogant, egotistic and ambitious. They then obtain compromising information on those people for blackmail purposes. I'm not making this up. Back in the 80s there was a form, a sort of checklist, distributed to KGB agents, that specifically instructed them to look for people with these traits. Everything that's coming out about this scandal, including the 'piss tapes', is entirely consistent with the way Russia operates. Trump's team were doing what they were told to do.


Also you seem to imply that restoring somewhat warmer relations with Russia would be a bad thing? I struggle to see how this could in any way what so ever be a fact?


If relations between Russia and the USA are to improve, it should be the result of above-board diplomacy and negotiation. Not secret meetings and promises of "help me win and I'll tear up those pesky sanctions". If Russia want better treatment, then their government needs to act better. What Trump's team did was seek to reward them for their continuous underhanded practices against the United States, because in this case it happened to benefit them. That's not diplomacy, that's corruption.

At any rate I maintain my stance on the email issue, in that it is more a nonissue than anything else.
I believe the sentiments expressed by Professor Sakwa on the matter of Russian meddling in elections is nicely epitomised in this excerpt;
"The vast networks of sponsored think tanks also swung into action, producing a stream of reports exposing Russia’s nefarious activities and its ‘Trojan horses’. The report Winning the Information War, produced by the Centre for European Policy Analysis (CEPA) in Washington, DC, warned that [t] he Russian government uses disinformation, incitement to violence and hate speech to destroy trust, sap morale, degrade the information space, erode public discourse and increase partisanship’. 31 In this model, the West is presented as supine and open, while the monstrous Russian bear has almost supernatural powers to shape opinions, win elections and in general destabilise a vulnerable and innocent West."
Hypocrisy and the crys of foul play don't do wonders for the Wests credibility here i'm afraid.


It may seem silly, and I'm no great defender of the West either, but there is truth behind it. Russia does do those things. But they're not superhuman, by any means. The invasion of Crimea has been disastrous for Russia, and their ploy with Trump hasn't exactly come off well, either. Sanctions are still in place, details of their machinations have leaked all over the place and their American accomplices are being indicted.
(edited 6 years ago)

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