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EU begins process to sanction Poland...

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It's their country and up to them - the EU should butt out and stop meddling in another sovereign country's affairs
Original post by So-Sarah
For many, the control of borders is of far greater issue than percentage points regarding 'the economy'.


Many will soon change their mind once they lose their job and are unable to put food on the table. Shafting someone else over is only fun when you are all right Jack.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by Rinsed
It's worth pointing out the backdrop to all this. The ruling party in Poland before the last elections (PO), knowing they were heading out, wanted to secure their influence in the court. The extant judges (mostly PO appointees) cooked up a law which allowed the current government to appoint new judges, where the terms ran out after the election. When it was questioned whether the judges were acting constitutionally, the judges deliberated and concluded that they were (they probably weren't).
That's not the full story. Some of the judges were apointed illegally, but some not. The PO was breaking the law a little bit many times, but they were always trying to keep the general shape legit, and they were never fully in control of anything. They were not playing chess strictly to the rules, but they were still playing chess. Now, the PIS is like a pigeon who turns over all the pawns, shits on the chessboard, and claims victory.

Original post by DeBruyne18

The current Polish government is acting in a deeply authoritarian way and that should draw condemnation from both Brexiteers and remainers.

Aye. But the Poles can't see it, because they hate the opposition and the west too much.

Original post by DeBruyne18

Indeed that's what makes our judicial system the best around. And also why it's so wrong that the president of the USA has such a big say in the composition of the Supreme Court.


Here I wouldn't bother that much. The Supreme Court has been deeply influenced by corporate business for about a hundred of years, and the US political system is designed to be legally corrupted. (political campaigns sponsorship)

Original post by ByEeek
Many will soon change their mind once they lose their job and are unable to put food on the table. Shafting someone else over is only fun when you are all right Jack.


But in the end they anyway will say that it's all fault of the EU, German enemies, French traitors and Russian spies.
Like in other oppressive regimes, they always do good, and all the misfortunes are because of an enemy sabotage.

This also shows how dangerous it may be, to have public media. The current government has kicked literally everyone who would not obey, out of the public media, and the public TV- the most popular around the country, goes full propaganda all the time. People are told, over and over again, that entire opposition is either corrupted, criminal or communist, that secret communist structures are still alive and want to take over, that the EU wants to get Poland shafted, that other media are German, Russian spies everywhere, and that Islam is taking over Europe. People listen to this crap everyday for two years and they get brainwashed.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by PTMalewski
But in the end they anyway will say that it's all fault of the EU, German enemies, French traitors and Russian spies.
Like in other oppressive regimes, they always do good, and all the misfortunes are because of an enemy sabotage.


They can blame who they like. It won't give them a job. I think you need to look up represive regime. Can you name another regime that gave its citizens universal human rights, environmental controls that saw the end of raw sewage being pumped into the sea (something we did very well), borderless travel and a single currency that makes trade very much simpler? To say nothing of the recent ban on roaming charges. Thank you EU.
Original post by ByEeek
Seriously? Poland? So you want to saddle up with Poland? What is going on with the world? Would you have closer ties with Russia too?

Just out of curiosity - have you ever actually visited Europe? Do you know anything about it?


Yes I would have closer ties with Russia, what’s the point is being hostile to them?
Original post by paul514
Yes I would have closer ties with Russia, what’s the point is being hostile to them?


So you are happy to forge closer ties with a country that oppresses any form of internal criticism (democracy) and that coined the word espionage. Have you not heard of the cold war? I wouldn't trust the Russians one millimetre. I find it bizarre folks like yourself seem to be more trusting of a state that is attacking us on a daily basis than long held friendly countries like France and Germany.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by ByEeek
So you are happy to forge closer ties with a country that oppresses any form of internal criticism (democracy) and that coined the word espionage. Have you not heard of the cold war? I wouldn't trust the Russians one millimetre. I find it bizarre folks like yourself seem to be more trusting of a state that is attacking us on a daily basis than long held friendly countries like France and Germany.


It’s not a trade of who I trust more I just see no point in being hostile to them.
Original post by paul514
It’s not a trade of who I trust more I just see no point in being hostile to them.


It isn't so much us being hostile to them. It is the hostility they are doing to us

Cyber attacks
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40557092

Military incursions into British airspace
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41337496

Meddling with elections
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41973043

I am sure some will dismiss these as some form of conspiracy, but I don't see similar stories surfacing about other countries. Where there is smoke and all that.
Original post by ByEeek
They can blame who they like. It won't give them a job. I think you need to look up represive regime. Can you name another regime that gave its citizens universal human rights, environmental controls that saw the end of raw sewage being pumped into the sea (something we did very well), borderless travel and a single currency that makes trade very much simpler? To say nothing of the recent ban on roaming charges. Thank you EU.


You know this, I know this, but lots of people live in a propaganda-made Matrix.
There is no idea too absurd that people wouldn't believe if only it was presented to them properly. With full control over 5+ channels of public TV, 3 channels of radio and several newspapers in possesion, this can be done, especially when opposition consists of discredited oldboys without a scent of charisma, an idiot who doesn't know basic historical facts to the level below average in population, a lunatic, a corrupt and a few ex commies who have no idea what to do, because the PIS has stolen all the social ideas they traditionally were using. There is no serious alternative to the regime, and whoever tries to give a stand instantly gets labelled as a communist, German agent, Russian agent or something like this. Which is easily accepted especially since the former leader of cross-party protests really turned up to be a fraud. The PO launched large protests against the government and they failed to do this authentically and uprightly, as usual.
With the current opposition and control over media, the PIS can rule Poland for the next 20 years, at least untill the economy collapses totally.
Original post by ByEeek
It isn't so much us being hostile to them. It is the hostility they are doing to us

Cyber attacks
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40557092

Military incursions into British airspace
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41337496

Meddling with elections
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41973043

I am sure some will dismiss these as some form of conspiracy, but I don't see similar stories surfacing about other countries. Where there is smoke and all that.


I've got a question: what else do you expect them to do?
Not because they are Russians but to protect what they have?
The largest country in the world, having extremely rich natural resources of all kinds, relatively weak economy and only 140 million population.

Military incursions into airspace don't bother me, it's just a propaganda. With possesed weapons such guided-missle armed stragic bombers and rocket weaponery, strategic attacks do not require any incursions of aircrafts into British airspace (in fact modern tactics of strategic bombers require them to stay 3000km+ away from their target), and tactical attacks are most unlikely as Russia will not ever launch a direct offensive against the UK - extremely difficult and makes no sense at all.
Speaking of cyber attacks- Snowden showed us that the US invigilates everyone and from time to time -cyver-attacks countries they are not formally at war with.
Russia is much weaker than the US or Europe-together, they have to compensate it somehow.
I agree there is no point in being hostile to Russia. Europe and Russia would both benefif from closer cooperation, the problem is that Poland and the rest of the countries east of Oder suffer from Russo-phobia, and agressive Russian self-preservation policy doesn't make the case easy even for the west as we see.
Something however has to be done. The Germany already cooperates with Russia in gas supply through the Nordstream II- this instalation has cut off the route from Scandinavia to Poland and caused the rise of nationalism and fear of Germans and Russian working together again, which has also contributed to the present problems in Poland.
Original post by ByEeek
Many will soon change their mind once they lose their job and are unable to put food on the table. Shafting someone else over is only fun when you are all right Jack.


and I guess you just forgot to say that to all those Brits who were put out of work due the the literal horsdes of unskilled immigrants we've had forced on us, or did you forget...
Original post by So-Sarah
and I guess you just forgot to say that to all those Brits who were put out of work due the the literal horsdes of unskilled immigrants we've had forced on us, or did you forget...


Which Brits do you talk of? Would that be all those veg picker, cleaners, waiters or hotel receptionists Brits are fighting for? Anyway, we have the lowest unemployment since the 70s so your immigrant theory doesn't stack up.

Anyway, keep up your hate. The immigrants will head home after Brexit so just hope you don't work for a company looking to expand it's head count cause right now, employing staff is a nightmare.
Original post by ByEeek
Which Brits do you talk of?

probably the vast chunk who voted Leave
Original post by So-Sarah
probably the vast chunk who voted Leave


They are going to be in for a disappointment after Brexit when unemployment goes up as businesses falter under increased buerocracy and higher import costs. Most Brits that complain about immigrants "taking their jobs" don't have the work ethic or skills employers are looking for.
People who support the EU should be shot in the head for treason
Original post by ByEeek
They are going to be in for a disappointment after Brexit when unemployment goes up as businesses falter under increased buerocracy and higher import costs. Most Brits that complain about immigrants "taking their jobs" don't have the work ethic or skills employers are looking for.


LOL , sure, and that's why the UK had such a booming economy in the first place to which the immigrants were attracted to, like the Brits were so lazy that British industry just invented itself (add sarcasm icon)

nope, the whole point of mass immigration is to lower wages / working conditions and push up rents
Original post by So-Sarah
nope, the whole point of mass immigration is to lower wages / working conditions and push up rents


And who has benefitted? Why, British home owners. And where as people are clamouring over each other to have migration stopped, I don't see a similar ground swell of people calling for house prices to fall. People grumble about them but once on the ladder they fall in line.
(edited 6 years ago)
It 's ok for those who own their houses outright but for those on mortgages or renting, homeless etc. then not so great at all. And that's a large chunk of people
Original post by Ganjaweed Rebel
Strike while the iron is hot; recognise the Catalan government.
I also believe that Southern Slobbovia should become independent

Southern Slobbovia to the Southernslobbovians !

we shall overcome
Original post by ByEeek
Yes historic. We imported our Royal family from Germany and love their cars and beer. Our Trafalgar Square Christmas tree is donated by Germany every year. France is one of the most popular holiday destinations after Spain and we have a history of undertaking hugely successful engineering projects with France, the Channel tunnel and Concode to name two.

What has Poland ever done for us, other than fix my central heating on a Bank Holiday weekend? :biggrin:


Yikes-you really have a chip on your shoulder about the Poles don't you ?

As you seem to enjoy reducing a discussion to the level of a game of "top trumps" then I'll take the bait...

1/ Poland played an important role in the Battle of Britain with the legendary 303 squadron have one of the highest kill rates within the entire RAF
2/ Marie Curie (I have a feeling you may need to look her up on Google)
3/ Chopin
4/ Even Marks and Spencers was started by a Polish refugee.

Original post by ByEeek
Nothing per se. But given our historically close ties to Germany and France I am trying to understand why there is such animosity against them by Brexiteers, yet warmth and friendliness to a country that is about as far removed from us culturally as you can get (Poland).


A very odd comment to make. The Poles fight in our wars, celebrate our Christmas and Easter, pray in our churches, wear Western style clothes yet other communities within the UK do none of those things and yet you claim that you can't get more culturally removed from us than the Poles !

Astonishing reasoning.

.....and I bet you read the Guardian :smile:

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