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    (Original post by Syntax)
    *Grr* Russia had 20,000,000 casualties
    Germany: 4,500,000 including 1,000,000 civilians.
    First of all, it was not Russia, but the Soviet Union.
    This figure- and even higher ones- are often quoted. I have never seen a statistical breakdown showing:
    how many were Poles, Letts, Lithuanians or Estonians murdered after the Soviet Union invaded these countries in 1939 amd 1940;
    how many were from the nations within the Soviet Union- including Chechnya-which were deported to central Asia in conditions so bad that half of them died, because- Stalin said- they might collaborate with the Nazis, several hundred miles away;
    hyow many were Soviet citizens who decided- mistakenly- that no-one, not even the Nazis, could possibly be as vile as Stalin and his friends and fought with the Nazis;
    how many were already prisoners in the gulag or were arrested and imprisoned by the Cheka for no good reason at all and then murdered or worked or starved or froze to death in the gulag.
    Some years ago I wrote to the Embassy of the Soviet Union asking about this. They never answered, so perhaps they didn't know. On the other hand, perhaps they didn't want to know.
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    First of all, it was not Russia, but the Soviet Union.
    This figure- and even higher ones- are often quoted. I have never seen a statistical breakdown showing:
    how many were Poles, Letts, Lithuanians or Estonians murdered after the Soviet Union invaded these countries in 1939 amd 1940;
    how many were from the nations within the Soviet Union- including Chechnya-which were deported to central Asia in conditions so bad that half of them died, because- Stalin said- they might collaborate with the Nazis, several hundred miles away;
    hyow many were Soviet citizens who decided- mistakenly- that no-one, not even the Nazis, could possibly be as vile as Stalin and his friends and fought with the Nazis;
    how many were already prisoners in the gulag or were arrested and imprisoned by the Cheka for no good reason at all and then murdered or worked or starved or froze to death in the gulag.
    Some years ago I wrote to the Embassy of the Soviet Union asking about this. They never answered, so perhaps they didn't know. On the other hand, perhaps they didn't want to know.
    I've seen the 20 million Soviet dead statistic in just about every book I've read on the topic, as well as in every history course which covered the topic. In one course, my professor said that they didn't keep accurate records of deaths in the S.U., so the 20 million was an estimate from historians. Now, I don't know what criteria they used, but I would think they would less biased in their calculations, so I think it's a good stat.
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    (Original post by psychic_satori)
    I've seen the 20 million Soviet dead statistic in just about every book I've read on the topic, as well as in every history course which covered the topic. In one course, my professor said that they didn't keep accurate records of deaths in the S.U., so the 20 million was an estimate from historians. Now, I don't know what criteria they used, but I would think they would less biased in their calculations, so I think it's a good stat.
    "Good Stats" and the Soviet Union tend not to go hand in hand, look at the Piatiletkii for perfectly adequate proof of that.

    But what I really don't understand is precisely what casualty figures have to do with reparations. It has not been the case in almost every other conflict, so why this one. Reparations are usually paid on the belief of "fault" for starting the war (although this usually is more like the victor taking the spoils). Anyway is 60 years of (relative) peace in Europe not reparation enough?
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    (Original post by psychic_satori)
    I've seen the 20 million Soviet dead statistic in just about every book I've read on the topic, as well as in every history course which covered the topic. In one course, my professor said that they didn't keep accurate records of deaths in the S.U., so the 20 million was an estimate from historians. Now, I don't know what criteria they used, but I would think they would less biased in their calculations, so I think it's a good stat.
    Which historians? Presumably they estimated numbers in different categories. Or did they just decide twenty million sounds good? For Poland and the Baltic States they had a reliable basis in pre-war censuses. The Soviet census for 1939 was suppressed and the census takers punished for sabotage [coming up with embarassingly accurate figures], but presumably they have found the revords in the files. The cheka kept horribly accurate records of all that happened- though how much has got into the open is another matter.
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    (Original post by teamvillage)
    "Good Stats" and the Soviet Union tend not to go hand in hand, look at the Piatiletkii for perfectly adequate proof of that.

    But what I really don't understand is precisely what casualty figures have to do with reparations. It has not been the case in almost every other conflict, so why this one. Reparations are usually paid on the belief of "fault" for starting the war (although this usually is more like the victor taking the spoils). Anyway is 60 years of (relative) peace in Europe not reparation enough?
    I just checked out a few of the books I have on the topic, and they basically stated that 2,500,000 USSR soldiers died, and with civilian casualties, the number shoots up to 20 million. Also, they pointed out that the line between soldier and civilian was considerably blurry, since there were so many instances of Soviets forming community militias to combat the invading Germans. Whether you include these people who were technically civilians as such, or an extent of the military death toll would probably play an important role in your opinion of the statistics.
    The startingly high number of casualties isn't all that shocking, since a commonly used Russian tactic was to just throw manpower at any problem, since they had such a large population in comparison with the other countries in the war. And, we don't know how many of their dead were killed in the decimation punishments, or shot when they tried to abandon the army.
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    I was the person that orignally brought up the whole issue of Russian reparations to Germany - what people on this board need to understand is that atrocities were committed by both sides (ie Germans and Russians).

    Don't get me wrong, what the Germans did to the Russian population during the 42 offensive was appalling - and the germans were the invaders (the 'baddies' if you wish) therefore in the wrong.

    However, atrocities were also committed during the Soviet advance by Soviet troops - and I speak from experience. My mother was the direct result of the rape of a German women (my grandmother) by a Soviet soldier, who had just shot the woman's husband (my grandfather) at point blank range for no obvious reason - except I suppose for being German.

    I am sure German troops did the same in 42 but I would just like it known that the Soviets were not "angels".

    As far as reparations go, though, the actions committed by both Germans and Russians would probably cancel each other out - as another person had previously pointed out.
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    (Original post by Beejra)
    I am sure German troops did the same in 42 but I would just like it known that the Soviets were not "angels".
    Exactly. If you think about the Soviet treatment of *their own* soldiers (decimating the ranks after a loss in battle as punishment, shooting deserters, sending their troops to fight poorly equipped, etc), it's obvious that their treatment of others would be even worse.
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    (Original post by psychic_satori)
    Exactly. If you think about the Soviet treatment of *their own* soldiers (decimating the ranks after a loss in battle as punishment, shooting deserters, sending their troops to fight poorly equipped, etc), it's obvious that their treatment of others would be even worse.
    not to mention the fact they kept german pow's into the 50's
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    (Original post by MuniE)
    not to mention the fact they kept german pow's into the 50's
    Not surprising since Stalin was such a crazy. He actually ordered KGB to kill John Wayne (the American actor in lots of westerns)! I still laugh every time I think of that one.
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    well similar situation happening over here. The native people want compinsation for all the land we took from them. The native people dont even want to be called canadians. More money is spent on them than on our defence, what a joke.
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    If the germand want war reparations from the poles for seizure of land and property, then the germans should pay compensation to israel, or to the families of jews for the holocaust. For starters, 6 million dead, guestimate of life insurance these days, £100,000 , thats 600 billion pounds in compensation already. I think they should shut up and count themselves lucky.
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    (Original post by janon)
    If the germand want war reparations from the poles for seizure of land and property, then the germans should pay compensation to israel, or to the families of jews for the holocaust. For starters, 6 million dead, guestimate of life insurance these days, £100,000 , thats 600 billion pounds in compensation already. I think they should shut up and count themselves lucky.
    Did you actually read the article?
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    (Original post by foolfarian)
    But don't you see that following my argument these Germans don't have a leg to stand on.
    I said if they were ethnic germans used for pertext, then it was unfair because they didn't elect the government.

    WEll part of democracy is that you are responsbile for the government, and the government is responsible for you. Just as the american people are responsbile for anything Bush does, so the german people were responsbile for what Hitler did. Remember he was elected through democratic channels. He waged war, and lost. And with him so did Germany and all germans.

    Besides which this is all ******** anyway. How long do you think these 'germans' had actually been german before being taken by poland? one, two generations? The borders have barely changed in near 60 years. Which is the first time you could have said that for many centuries.
    They shoudl just shut the f*ck up and get on with life
    J
    Hitler was never voted int through democratic channels; he never received more than 50% of the vote. He was invited into power under Article 48 (or was it the other one... always get them mixed up) by Hindenburg and manipulated events to create a dictatorship.
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    (Original post by janon)
    the germans should pay compensation to israel, or to the families of jews for the holocaust. For starters, 6 million dead, guestimate of life insurance these days, £100,000 , thats 600 billion pounds in compensation already.
    Ever heard of Simon Wiesenthal - thanks to his efforts the German government have been paying compensation to Jewish families since the 60s

    (Original post by janon)
    I think they should shut up and count themselves lucky.
    One shouldn't make silly remarks when one doesn't know what one is talking about
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    (Original post by janon)
    If the germand want war reparations from the poles for seizure of land and property, then the germans should pay compensation to israel, or to the families of jews for the holocaust. For starters, 6 million dead, guestimate of life insurance these days, £100,000 , thats 600 billion pounds in compensation already. I think they should shut up and count themselves lucky.
    I know someone already posted to this and said they actually do pay money to the jews but i just thought I would say it again. I alsi think janon should shut up and listen to both sides. These weren't Nazi's in all cases, some were german farmers who bought farms then were kicked out when they lost the war.
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    The issue is too big to say one side should shut up or go home or give x,y and z to a, b, and c. The fact is that you can't blame one faction or another for WW2 exclusively and in the blanket fashion that often happens.

    If we want to talk seriously about reparations for past acts we need to look very carefully at ourselves as well and everything that the British Empire did, before we go off claiming others should be filling out blank cheques.

    Talking briefly about Russia (or the Soviet Union) its a tragic part of history, but (and I admit my History in this regard isn't great) without the actions of the USSR Nazi Germany may well have 'won' the war and ultimately many more may have died. The problem is hindsight is a mixed blessing, and one that doesn't really make tracing alternative futures out of WW2 much easier
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    It's all very well to learn from the past and not repeat the same mistake and everything, but there's a lot to be said for leaving the past as the past, and then looking towards the furture, esp with Polend now in the EU.

    Perhaps somebody could explain this to this German group of people ?
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    (Original post by tkfmbp)
    It's all very well to learn from the past and not repeat the same mistake and everything, but there's a lot to be said for leaving the past as the past, and then looking towards the furture, esp with Polend now in the EU.

    Perhaps somebody could explain this to this German group of people ?
    Explain it to the jews too.
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    In the end, time will pass, the last survivors of these events will die out, people will concentrate on other, fresher massacres and claims for compensation.

    Human justice is limited -compensation for all of the world's wrongs would lead us too far
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    (Original post by foolfarian)

    But the other way of thinking is that in the large part their childrena dn childrens children are much better off for it. You have to remember this is basically the citizens of an affluent country suing the governemnt of a relatively destitute country.

    I think the German government should pay the compensation. Why? Because they were the ones that dragged these ethnic germans into the whole mess, so they should be the ones that pay.
    I agree about it should be the German government that pays, but not your that it is OK becaue the children and children's children are better off.

    Prove that this is true. If I offered you money in return for your grandmother being raped would you agree? After all you would end up better off.

    Do you think it would be OK for you and your family to be thrown out of your home and lose all your possesions as long as your grandchildren ended up in the USA (or whichever is the richest country in the world in 60 years time)
 
 
 
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