Christian Union

That doesn't sound like a very merciful, benevolent, fair and just God. Why hasn't He spoken to me? When I was younger, I was quite accepting of Him, but I never so much as got a peep out of Him. If He only talks to a chosen few, then how are the rest of us going to get salvation?

Reply 202

Well I always figured that if he really were all-powerful then he'd communicate by singing Sospan Fach in Welsh backwards whilst spinning a leek on his head and dancing 'russian style'!!! Probably why I never heard a peep :P

Now, mickey-taking aside: are you really telling me that Christians hear voices? Hmm ... I'm with 'the_alba' on this one seems a bit of strange thing?

Reply 203

Huw Davies

11

Bekaboo

No. But the point is that Christians do believe they have evidence: and not just in the form of the bible. I only know one practicing Christian who has not had some kind of religious experience during which he or she converted from a "cultural Christian" to a practicing one. As I've said before, either I'm insane (and hear voices) or God is real.

False dichotomy there. Most "sane" people will at some point experience mild hallucinations or odd sensory experiences (and they can be induced with magnets), and for various social\cultural reasons ascribe them to God rather than, say, fairies, witches, the Devil, Pallas Athena, one's ancestors, ghosts, or simply writing them off altogether.

There has been work recently on induction of out-of-body experiences too IIRC.

heliotrope

honestly, i don't understand how anyone who actively follows an organised religion can be at oxford. in my opinion, if you're willing to entirely base how you live your life on what a book says some said some other guy said that god told him, that suggests a hopeless gullibility and lack of proper textual scepticism. these two things are bad for academic study.

Then you're very narrow-minded and will find it very odd to encounter extraordinarily intelligent Christians and other religionists here. Do you really want a list of extraordinary scientists, philosophers and other thinkers who actively followed a religion? Newton believed some extraordinarily loopy things about alchemy and yet made an enormous contribution to our understanding of the natural world.

I personally disbelieve in God but it is arrogant and misguided to claim that we atheists have a monopoly on thoughtful inquiry? These sorts of proclamations by atheists are just as irritating as proselytising by believers - more so, if anything, as I am ostensibly in the same trench.

Reply 204

Cirsium

19

the_alba

Are these experiences had before, after, or independently of an evangelical trying to convert them? This is just something I'm curious about; if all the Christians you know became Christians after having a religious revelation, what is the point of evangelism?

And herein lies one of the many reasons why I'm not an evangelist. Tbh I've never gone into much discussion about it with people as it's quite a private thing to ask about. In my own personal experience I was already a cultural Christian and fairly happy with that - probably more committed than most cultural Christians but not by a massive margin. I've only ever had one evangelical try to "convert me" and she got a certain amount of short shrift so it certainly didn't have anything to do with that. I think the idea isn't that evangelism convert people, but that it opens them up to the idea of the religion. A lot of people (especially the rampant atheists I know) dismiss the idea of God outright without knowing anything about specific religions. Which is fair enough I guess. But also a bit of a shame. I see evangelism as useful in so far as raising awareness, but little else.

Huw Davies

False dichotomy there. Most "sane" people will at some point experience mild hallucinations or odd sensory experiences (and they can be induced with magnets), and for various social\cultural reasons ascribe them to God rather than, say, fairies, witches, the Devil, Pallas Athena, one's ancestors, ghosts, or simply writing them off altogether.

Well yes but I wasn't talking about random hallucinations. I was talking about a fairly mindblowing experience that left me in no doubt that my options were a) follow the Almighty or b) suffer the consequences.

Reply 205

Bekaboo

A lot of people (especially the rampant atheists I know) dismiss the idea of God outright without knowing anything about specific religions. Which is fair enough I guess. But also a bit of a shame.

Since I guess I'm one of those :wink:

To be honest, you hardly need to know about the inner workings of religion to see how it operates. That's why as a historian I've studied religion quite often and at every turn you see the same debates as we're having now on this forum. Religion, particularly Christianity since that's the main one in Britain, has long been seen as sanctimonious and hypocritical. Reading discourse from the South Wales Valleys in the late nineteenth century you can be forgiven for thinking that we've been at odds with the religious for quite a long time. Religion served a general purpose when there was few secular offerings in education, healthcare, recreation. Now it has very little right to be there because those things should be offered on the basis of individual need not religious affiliation.

I still fail to see / understand the whole hallucinogenic or out-of-body experience that led to being a full Christian. Sounds, for want of a better word, a bit 'daft'. But then I wouldn't understand not having gone through one so that could just be my own prejudice coming through...

Reply 206

Cirsium

19

Yes you are. And while I have no objection to you disagreeing with the principle of there being a God (which I think you're perfectly entitled to) I have to admit that I was rather astounded when you started spouting crap that wasn't even in the Bible as evidence that "Jesus was bad" and promptly admitted to having never so much as opened a Gospel. I think you're well within your rights to say that God can't exist: but Christian bashing without knowing the first thing about the doctrine Christianity is ludicrous.

My point about the experience is that that is what amuses me most about the "how can you base your faith on the Bible" arguement. Uh, sorry but I don't. I base my faith on the fact that I have had more than one experience which left me in absolutely no doubt as to the power of the Almighty. Imagine Neo's reaction to finding out about the Matrix. The book tells me what it is historically believed that God has said and done, and it's a useful guide. But my faith in the Holy Trinity would persist with or without the book.

Reply 207

Hey, I spout crap for a living ... that's why I'm a historian.

Surely these 'experiences' make the case more for personal faith, personal revelation, than for the spreading of the word. I mean, to use the 'old person's get out clause': what dearies do in the comfort of their own homes behind closed doors etc etc. It's just that as far as it's unreasonable to claim that Christians are irrational for believing in creation (much as atheists are in evolution) without taking the time to try to fathom out the possibilities of it being true; so too is it unreasonable to claim that we're all damned and going to hell without stepping outside of the Christian shell to see for a moment why secular atheists consider it annoying.

As for evidence as to why I don't trust Christians. I once had the unfortunate experience of talking to a doctor about bipolarism and he pushed the 'Gospel according to Luke' my way as a solution :eek:

Perhaps he was trying to get me to fall asleep at night or something, but there's a difference between using your faith personally and then using it inappropriately. It irks me that these evangelical types do such things.

Reply 208

thomasjtl

9

As for evidence as to why I don't trust Christians. I once had the unfortunate experience of talking to a doctor about bipolarism and he pushed the 'Gospel according to Luke' my way as a solution

ok, that's frickin' weird- don't judge the lot of us by what one slightly strange doctor did.

so too is it unreasonable to claim that we're all damned and going to hell without stepping outside of the Christian shell to see for a moment why secular atheists consider it annoying.

We know full well why you find it annoying- firstly, it's not a nice thing to say, it doesn't carry any proof that you can see for yourself with it (obviously you haven't had others religious experiences, and you discount the bible), and it's insulting to suggest that someone is fundementally corrupted when they considered themselves to have done nothing/very little wrong in their lives.

Reply 209

Opsimathmo

6

So when people get these visions or whatever are they told/do they perceive that it's a Christian god? Or If you happen to have been brought up vaguely near to Islam or Judaism or whatever you just make the connection? :evil:

Reply 210

Huw Davies

11

Bekaboo

Well yes but I wasn't talking about random hallucinations. I was talking about a fairly mindblowing experience that left me in no doubt that my options were a) follow the Almighty or b) suffer the consequences.

Obviously nobody can know your mind other than yourself, but I think you are casual in disregarding organic causes as being able to produce no more than "random hallucinations". Temporal lobe stimulation can produce very exciting complex hallucinations. How would you explain the equally powerful feelings of belief induced by similar experiences in those who believe in Islam, magic, or ghosts?

One could square the circle by considering God as working through neurological means, though I don't know how satisfying that would be to a Christian.

Reply 211

thomasjtl

9

I wouldn't like to say how God works- i'm guessing probably something neurological was going on when i've had 'spiritual experiences' (to put it blandly), but to make a point out that would be to confuse cause and effect. I'm pretty certain there were no big magnets about at the time, nor was it because i'd eaten something funny.

There's always debate, even within the church about spiritual experiences, the holy spirit etc. about what's real and what's just the brain playing tricks on us etc. Before coming to oxford i was used to big happy clappy, experiential churches- pentecostal if you like- and these doubts did cross my mind. When i came up to oxford, i ended up not at st.aldates or OCC (which would seem the natural churches to join) but rather st. ebbes, a much more conservative 'sensible' church, although that was through either God's intervention or bizarre coincidence- it so happened that i missed the st. aldates service my second sunday in oxford, so was instead invited along to the ebbes service which started an hour later, and there i heard a sermon that spoke directly into some personal issues i was working through (and i don't mean in a vague magazine horoscope sense).

I've come to the conclusion that these things can be made up/caused by things that are just coincidence etc. especially if you're willing them to happen, but sometimes things happen completely unexpectedly, and while any one could be dismissed as an anomaly, together they become increasingly convincing. (see, christians can be scientific :p:

)

Reply 212

I'm sure Robert Winston did something on this didn't he? As in testing to see whether faith was neurological. As I recall the programme determined that religious people are more prone to certain neurological 'functions' so you guys might be quite right. Genetics, perhaps, determines susceptibilty (not quite the word but you know what I mean) to religious belief. Of course atheism is hardly perfect and people swear blind by certain of its principles to the extent that it suggests that there is a neurological / psychological need for faith in something. Whether this validates the religious claim is another question.

Having said that I haven't had a halucinegenic awakening into my atheism. Just seemed to make 'more sense' (if that's even fair) than religion. Especially since so many of the religious people I've met have been so hypocritical and downright weird (see above for example)...

Reply 213

thomasjtl

I've come to the conclusion that these things can be made up/caused by things that are just coincidence etc. especially if you're willing them to happen, but sometimes things happen completely unexpectedly, and while any one could be dismissed as an anomaly, together they become increasingly convincing. (see, christians can be scientific :p:

)

I've had many coincidences that I could take a sign. Just take every time something interpretable as a "sign" doesn't happen, and compare. :wink:

A series of coincidence is just that. I ended up becoming interested in Physics, and indeed taking it as an AS in the first place, by pure serendipity. I call it just that, not divine intervention. :p:

Why, just last night I had become irritated with a Christian for some reason, and I whilst showering was thinking *something-something-Jesus-something-something-ludicrous...* (my memory is brilliant!). At that moment, in my mental blasphemy, a shower gel (without me touching the rack) fell off the rack, and as it hit the floor, a shard of plastic stabbed me in the leg. Did I think it was a warning? Did I ***! I thought it was hilarious! :rolleyes:

Reply 214

HCD

I've had many coincidences that I could take a sign. Just take every time something interpretable as a "sign" doesn't happen, and compare. :wink:

A series of coincidence is just that. I ended up becoming interested in Physics, and indeed taking it as an AS in the first place, by pure serendipity. I call it just that, not divine intervention. :p:

Why, just last night I had become irritated with a Christian for some reason, and I whilst showering was thinking *something-something-Jesus-something-something-ludicrous...* (my memory is brilliant!). At that moment, in my mental blasphemy, a shower gel (without me touching the rack) fell off the rack, and as it hit the floor, a shard of plastic stabbed me in the leg. Did I think it was a warning? Did I ***! I thought it was hilarious! :rolleyes:

See now it's things like that what caused a clever fellow to go oooh gravity :biggrin:

Rather than, sorry lord!

Reply 215

oriel historian

See now it's things like that what caused a clever fellow to go oooh gravity :biggrin:

Rather than, sorry lord!

Newton was a strong Christian, though!

Reply 216

HCD

Newton was a strong Christian, though!

It was a joke. Rather than trying to be serious. Now by Toutatis watch the sky fall on our heads! I tells ye it's coming, it really is. Now where's dogmatix?

Reply 217