Christian Union

Bekaboo

It's a complicated one, and I'm speculating a bit as - as I keep mentioning - I am not one of these evangelical charismatic types and am actually both of the view that if Our Lord wants you he will have you regardless, and that being separated from God is sufficient hell for anyone and therefore believe in a kind of pergatory type scenario. But let's not get into that.

Very similar to the hell Mephistopheles describes as his own in Dr Faustus. :wink:

However, I'm living in no spiritual pain whatever, now that I have forgiven God for declining to exist.

Though I, like you say next, don't completely reject the possibility of him. My rejection of the idea is almost complete, but not totally.

Bekaboo

I, for fairly obvious reasons, have had less trouble than many with people trying to convert me, but I did in my first year live with a girl who tried to convert my best friend while we were sat drinking tea in my room (to my considerable disgust: seeing as said friend is a practicing Jew and was wearing the star of David, and being a literature student has basically read the new testament cover to cover as well and made his own educated decision). As far as I can make out from her, and from the CU of the aforementioned college, they believe that it's Christianity or Hell with a kind of fervour that to me suggests certainty.

Personally I'm still open to suggestion - I'm learning all the time. But I think this is one of those things where a lot of people really are certain.

If only the evangelicals I knew at Hull University were this thoughtful.

Reply 102

Turnery

If you have no more reason to believe in God than you have reason to believe that my cats are actually Soviet alien spies, then don't you actually have particular reasons to not believe in God, since there are plenty of reasons why your cats wouldn't be spies? :p:

I'd also say that your definition of atheism is a bit restrictive, but your general point - that the existence of "god", as in a deistic god, is perhaps reasonable whereas "God" in a theistic sense, referring to the God of particular religions, is much more unlikely - I agree with entirely.

Reply 103

"My" definition was from the dictionary. :p:

If my cats were very adept Soviet Alien Spies, I wouldn't be able to detect them, now would I? They'd be good at hiding the fact! I'm becoming paranoid! :p:

the_alba

Very similar to the hell Mephistopheles describes as his own in Dr Faustus. :wink:

However, I'm living in no spiritual pain whatever, now that I have forgiven God for declining to exist.

Though I, like you say next, don't completely reject the possibility of him. My rejection of the idea is almost complete, but not totally.

Join the club! :smile:

Reply 104

HCD

Join the club! :smile:

Hmm. Though I wouldn't like to overplay the smidgen of doubt I do have. I'm pretty much a through and through atheist.

Reply 105

Cirsium

19

I realise full well that they believe in it, but I also know that I don't. If, for example, you've got a nice tasty cake in front of you.... etc etc

And that is an attitude that I have no issue with anybody taking. I was just trying to point out the irrationality of getting really angry at someone for doing what they considered as helping you.

wouldn't say atheists are all irrational!

Oh nor would I. But the only ones I know of who get actively angry with people of faith and say things like obviously we shouldn't be at Oxford ARE irrational.

But you don't 'know' that we're going to hurt ourselves.

Of course I don't. I don't even THINK that you will. But I wasn't talking about ME (I thought it was overkill to keep saying this but apparently not....
And this is my point. That you see it as a belief and a fundy Christian sees it as absolute certainty. You just have to get into the hypothetical mindset. One day you're living your own little life when God pops up and says uh hey I'm here. And the options are either you're clinically insane or it's real. There's no middle ground.

It's as if you see everyone who is not one of you as a wayward child who needs to be 'taught' by you. It's incredibly patronising,because as I said before, you don't actually 'know' any more than we do about anything, you just think you do; at least, that's how I see it.

No, I don't. I have as much imagination as you like, and I'm NOT AN EVANGELIST. I am just trying to point out the reasons behind the evangelism of those who do choose that path. For somebody complaining that the CU aren't listening to what you try to say you're doing a damn good job of accusing me of evangelism.

I don't think any of us, evangelical or not, are trying to evangelise on TSR. Somebody started a post full of accusations, and rubbish generalisations and a few of us tried to refute them. That's all.

Reply 106

Stony Steve Lemon

Bekaboo

It doesn't make them pointless: it highlights why you have such trouble just letting them get on with it. This is what I really don't get - do people not realise that anyone trying to convert them does think that they KNOW that they will go to hell?

And there is what I, as an atheist, really don't get. Great, you might think you know that I will go to hell, but you can't actually show that this is true. So to the atheist you're trying to convert will see you threatening them with not only something that they don't believe in, but something that you can't even prove exists.

My point is, that the other 2 analogies do not validate yours. The 2 people 'hurting you' in the scenarios (the parents + the friend) can actually show you that what they say is unequivocally true; they can show you that it is a Fact. The Christian can do no such thing.

Reply 107

I think any christian is lying if they don't from time to time question their beliefs. I accept people have very good reasons for disagreeing with christianity/religion/theism/spirituality etc. and sometimes i'm taken in by them for a time. Sometimes i hate it that i'm convinced in what i believe- sometimes i'd love to go out and drink as much as i like, hook up and sleep with someone and not have to be bothered by my conviction that God wants me to behave differently. Often i really don't wanna go and talk to people about what i believe, essentially telling them that they're gonna go to hell unless they change their mindset and be seen as the freak who hasn't quite outgrown the 'fairytales'. It's perfectly understandable that half the people here just want us to piss off and leave them alone- i mean what have i got to offer them? A free lunch and an unconvincing promise that if they become just like me and give up everything they enjoy somehow their life will be better? That they won't go to the hell they don't believe exists?

And yet, despite all this, somehow my life is better with Jesus than it's been at any other time. As much as i try to run away from it, something keeps pulling me back to my faith, my trust in God, and the conviction that i should behave differently accordingly, not because God'll stop liking me if i don't, but because He's calling me to something more. I don't understand it- if it's false my life is wasted, and so many people tell me that it is, or that i can't be sure, yet there is something there that convinces me otherwise, that tells me to keep going, that reminds of all that has changed (all things that could of happened in many other rational ways, but all nonetheless seemingly through and because i became a christian); these experiences resonate with just about every christian i've spoken to about this.

Reply 108

Bekaboo

No, I don't. I have as much imagination as you like, and I'm NOT AN EVANGELIST. I am just trying to point out the reasons behind the evangelism of those who do choose that path. For somebody complaining that the CU aren't listening to what you try to say you're doing a damn good job of accusing me of evangelism.

I didn't mean 'you' in the personal, you=Bekaboo sense, but in a more general sense. I clearly didn't get that across very well, which was sloppy of me. You *were* using a taking drugs comparison earlier, though, which made me assume you had evangelical leanings, so the 'you' was directed at 'you Christians with evangelical leanings'. Now I've read your other (later) posts, like the second one I commented on, and see that you're not, so I'm sorry for getting the wrong end of the stick.

Reply 109

- or as evangelicals would call us, sinners -

that may be true, but the evangelical would also tell you that everyone including themselves were also sinners (apart from Jesus, obviously), so it's a pretty undescriptive term. They'd call you a non-chrstian most likely.

Reply 110

the_alba

Hmm. Though I wouldn't like to overplay the smidgen of doubt I do have. I'm pretty much a through and through atheist.

My belief that my cats are Soviet Alien Spies is also quite the smidgen. :wink:

The possibility exists, but I highly doubt that they're anything but cats. :p:

Same applied to my spiritual leanings (or lack thereof :p:

)

Reply 111

thomasjtl

that may be true, but the evangelical would also tell you that everyone including themselves were also sinners (apart from Jesus, obviously), so it's a pretty undescriptive term. They'd call you a non-chrstian most likely.

True enough, point taken. I've been called a heathen before as well though. But it seems like the Hull University crowd were less enlightened and a lot less thoughtful than you and Bekaboo on here. The things they would come out with... it was frightening. While I was there their Student Union funding was stopped after they were considered a little too cultish in their behaviour, so perhaps they were a bit more extreme than other CUs. That said, the story from the Graduate Tutor at St John's still stands, and it's not pleasant.

Reply 112

Cirsium

19

Stony Steve Lemon

And there is what I, as an atheist, really don't get. Great, you might think you know that I will go to hell, but you can't actually show that this is true. So to the atheist you're trying to convert will see you threatening them with not only something that they don't believe in, but something that you can't even prove

In which case I flawed my analogy by making the people too believable. What if your mum was a not-very-worldly-wise type who had heard on Kilroy that all drugs were bad? Or if your friend had heard of your girlfriend's reputation, but really you knew you'd seen something special in her? Sure you'd get pissy with them, but you'd know they were just looking out for you.

the_alba

You *were* using a taking drugs comparison earlier

Which I believe I finished with "I'm defending something I'd never do...." Besides which the drugs were irrelevant - it was a random situation in which somebody close to you would worry about your wellbeing.
No worries though, it's understandable if I try to defend something it's expected I support it. I just find the level of animosity levelled at all Christians, regardless of their views on evangelism (just because people assume we all want to get out there and start converting) absolutely beggars belief.

Reply 113

Bekaboo

In which case I flawed my analogy by making the people too believable. What if your mum was a not-very-worldly-wise type who had heard on Kilroy that all drugs were bad? Or if your friend had heard of your girlfriend's reputation, but really you knew you'd seen something special in her? Sure you'd get pissy with them, but you'd know they were just looking out for you.

True, but you'd still get pissy nevertheless! :p:

Especially if they persisted in imposing their views upon you (that all drugs are bad/that the girl is a slag) and would never consider thinking otherwise.

Reply 114

Stony Steve Lemon

Bekaboo

In which case I flawed my analogy by making the people too believable. What if your mum was a not-very-worldly-wise type who had heard on Kilroy that all drugs were bad? Or if your friend had heard of your girlfriend's reputation, but really you knew you'd seen something special in her? Sure you'd get pissy with them, but you'd know they were just looking out for you.

Could you clrarify something for me for the second instance - does the friend still tell me about the girlfriend?

Reply 115

That said, the story from the Graduate Tutor at St John's still stands, and it's not pleasant.

No it's not pleasant, but based on my experiences seems completely untrue, and if it was as bad as he made out he was the unfortunate victim of a very very small minority of the christian union. The 'techniques' encouraged are things like just raising the issue with your friends and discussing it- presenting your view while at the same time listening to their's, or inviting them to events that are well described in their intentions. We're not interested in duping people into coming- it's counterproductive.

Things like the international welcome cafes, or giving out water outside clubs- of course we hope to tell people about what we believe, but also it's about being nice to people and providing them with something useful.

Reply 116

thomasjtl

Things like the international welcome cafes, or giving out water outside clubs- of course we hope to tell people about what we believe, but also it's about being nice to people and providing them with something useful.

I have no doubts that your (general "you" meaning "the CU lot") intentions are good. :smile:

Reply 117

thomasjtl

No it's not pleasant, but based on my experiences seems completely untrue, and if it was as bad as he made out he was the unfortunate victim of a very very small minority of the christian union.

I assumed it was a fringe group, as it's something only fringe groups would do. It is completely true though, and anyone who is choosing not to believe me (there was someone earlier on this thread whose username escapes me) is welcome to email the St John's Graduate Admissions Tutor to get this confirmed. Unless he was lying :p:

It's not the kind of thing I'd lie about, as I haven't exactly been flaming the Christians on this thread. I saw some dodgy practices at Hull's CU, but that was because my connection to it was through my fervently evangelical housemate. I never even met a Christian at Oxford. Probably because I was a grad student in a decadent subject.

Reply 118

I'm not suggesting you're lying, or indeed that the tutor was lying- just that it goes against anything i've experienced with the CU and as such appears just wrong or highly exhaggerated.
And compared with other subjects, there are very few christian english students- i count three i know off the top of my head. Tonnes of compscis though...

Reply 119

Teebs